Buzzsprout Conversations
Welcome to Buzzsprout Conversations, the show where we dive into the real-life stories of podcasters in the middle of their podcasting journey.
You'll hear stories from famous podcasters as well as everyday podcasters, just like you, share stories about how podcasting has impacted them and the things they've learned.
Buzzsprout Conversations
Espree Devora: Creating Change Through Podcasting
Espree Devora shares her journey as a perpetual early adopter, being the face of the Clubhouse app, founding the Los Angeles tech community, and how podcasting brings people together.
Listen to Espree's podcast, "Women in Tech"
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Don't think about how many listens did I get. Think about how can I utilize this for my existing community. Don't think about it in such like a selfish way of like, like why am I not getting more? Why am I not getting more? Like I need, I need, I want, I want. Instead, think of it like how can I optimize this to champion listeners? ["song of the Year"].
Speaker 2:Hey friends, welcome back to the podcast. I'm so excited today my guest is Esprit DeVora. Esprit is a podcaster, she's an entrepreneur, she's a speaker and she's the host of multiple highly successful podcasts like the Women at Tech podcast, the we Are LA tech podcast, and if you just spend enough time online, I feel like you're ready to. Esprit kind of all over the place, very active on pretty much every social media platform that I ever get onto, and if she looks familiar, it might be because you recognize her as the former face of Clubhouse. She was the icon for the Clubhouse app because she was a super early adopter and now runs many of the largest podcast in Clubhouse rooms. So, esprit, thank you so much for being on the podcast with me today.
Speaker 1:Thank you for having me here. The one thing that you left out was and a mega fan of Buzzsprout Like I just think. I just think-.
Speaker 2:She is also a mega fan of Buzzsprout.
Speaker 1:Right. I just think that is so what you're doing for the community and how you're elevating podcasters to be on top of their game is so awesome. And you know, I'm not just saying that because I say that just in about every Clubhouse room.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we first met on Clubhouse. I think the headliner team connected us and I love just having conversations with you. Most of the Clubhouse talk about podcasting and community and that was why it kind of made perfect sense. I was like man, we've got to get you onto this Buzzsprout Conversation show and share your message with everybody on Buzzsprout.
Speaker 1:I'm excited. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2:So you've been podcasting since 2014. You've been in podcasting longer than I have.
Speaker 1:I started podcasting in 2013 and I launched the we Are LA Tech podcast in 2014. I started producing in 2013 because it takes time to brand the show and to schedule the guests and think about the intent of the show. So I just started producing and curating what the production would be and then I recorded and then I launched it. So I got it edited and these kinds of things in 2014 for we Are LA Tech and in 2015, I launched the Women in Tech podcast.
Speaker 2:Awesome For anybody watching that is so early in podcasting. Right now we are just crossing 2 million, it wasn't cool. It wasn't cool. I think it was cool. I started working at podcasts at the end of 2014. We had not hit 100,000 podcasts total then, and now we are over 2 million in the world and it's crazy just to see. It's remarkable to see how quickly the podcast industry has grown and caught on. Can you kind of tell us about that journey and how that's been for you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I also have a point of views in the trajectory of podcasts, Like when I started podcasting. If this is OK, or do you want me to stay focused on me?
Speaker 2:Because I just think this is interesting. Whatever you would like to share is what we want to talk about.
Speaker 1:I think. I just think it's really interesting that I thought podcasting would follow the trajectory of YouTube. So I'm like OK, I remember in 2012, I was working this job I was trying to force myself not to be an entrepreneur. It didn't bode well for me, but it was a time where I was like just stop giving your family panic attacks. So I said to my boss at some time I was like I think you should have a podcast. I think he worked with a lot of the top YouTubers in the world. I'm like I think you should have your clients on a podcast. And they're like no, no. And I'm like you know what? Well, I'm going to go off and I'm going to go create a podcast. So when I created my podcast, podcasting wasn't a thing, but I had one of the first YouTube channels. So I just felt really confident that I really think this industry is going to go somewhere.
Speaker 1:It was around that time the startup podcast came out, and so then all the tech startup eventually became Gimlet Media, which was eventually acquired by Spotify. At this time, no one cared about all these things except all the tech people, because they were documenting a tech company. Then another podcast came out that made it more mainstream. So now you have all the tech influencers talking about podcasting and the mainstream media talking about podcasting and then so it's kind of like these things that happen. Now we're in the phase and here's my point of why I'm sharing all this is we're in the phase of the podcast.
Speaker 1:Is the new blog that I think anyone is just taking up podcasting and they don't really have a why. They just feel like Instagram, that they're missing out. I got to be on it because I can't miss. I can't miss out, and what's happening as an indie podcast creator is you're under the illusion that, oh my gosh, now it's so saturated, now I don't have a chance because there's crossing over 2 million episodes but how many? Or 2 million shows? But how many of those shows are graveyard shows? Because people get discouraged because there's also something called pod fade and pod fade is essentially after I think it's like seven episodes or something. People get really discouraged that they don't have the listeners that they want, not knowing if you even have 130 listens a month, it's really successful. So I just think it's interesting kind of the journey of the podcasting industry overall. I think it's interesting the whole Joe Rogan Spotify thing and how that caters to the industry, or all the select, essentially just the choices Spotify is making. I think it's interesting all the technology being built for podcasting, so I won't go on and on about it.
Speaker 1:But I think, at the end of the day, when you're thinking about starting a podcast and I genuinely think Buzzsprout is an amazing solution in launching a show, especially when you're new, because Buzzsprout has all the marketing vehicles and education to be able to support you in that journey and it's so hard but when you're thinking about it, don't think about launching a podcast. Think. Think about it in the sense of how is this going to enhance, like the world I've architected, like my, my customer, my customer base, my community? Like don't think about how many listens I get. Think about how can I utilize this For my existing community, for you know, and then how can I maybe repurpose an episode into multiple things to empower others?
Speaker 1:Like Don't think about it in such like a selfish way of like, like why am I not getting more? Why am I not getting more? Like I need, I need, I want, I want. Instead, think of it like how can I Optimize this to champion listeners and to champion my existing community? And so, yeah, don't get up In, let me just get in podcasting, because everybody is get caught up in. How can I really serve others? Get caught up in that? I don't know. On my rant.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, what are the themes that I saw? That keeps coming up for you is community yeah and I think maybe can we kind of pull that through, add through your journey. Can you just give kind of a brief history of, like, what you do now, but kind of where you've come from, sure, and your, your journey as a podcaster, but also as an entrepreneur, yeah, so this is actually perfect.
Speaker 1:So in 2012, I created a. We are like a video series Spotlighting Los Angeles tech companies and talent and unfortunately, my partner at the time didn't have the same work ethic that I had. So we shot twelve episodes and then none of them were edited, and it broke my heart. So when I discovered podcasting, I'm like I never have to go through that again, I'm going to teach myself and I'm just never going to rely on an editor. I have editors now, but you know, at that time I just I never wanted to like Count. I mean, when I'm talking about video content, I'm not talking about like something quick with an iPhone. We had three camera shoots. I built the first action sports social network, so I had a lot of experience with video production and I'm not talking about something quick and upload. I'm talking about like a really well produced segment.
Speaker 1:My point is saying that is, you have to be a very skilled video editors to know how to do that. I can't just like pick that up in a few hours, you know. So it was a much lower lift to learn audio, only to learn this story story medium, because it's just easier, it's easier for editing, it's easier to understand. I'm not saying I'm not a sound engineer. There's a lot that could be done. That's way beyond my competency. But anyone could teach themselves relatively easily how to edit and how to produce a podcast. It takes practice in the beginning. One hour of recording would take me 40 minutes to edit. So like I mean, sorry, 40 hours to edit, like one hour recording would take 40 hours. Yeah, and I talked to Alex Bloomberg about this, the host to start a podcast and founder of Gimlet media, and he said it's really normal. He said it took him a really long time in the beginning to. It's all about practice. But I cared that much you know.
Speaker 1:So I started podcasting. I created the we are. They take video series in order and at this time, video was not a podcast like only audio was like podcasting. So I I wanted to highlight the LA tech community. I wanted to spotlight, like all all the amazing talent. So I wanted to use my video production skills from my action sports days and utilize them to help champion the community in Los Angeles. So then, as I shared, I pivoted to audio only podcasting. Continue doing the we are like tech podcast. Oh, and it was really cool. Within a month we were like top of Apple.
Speaker 1:So you know how everyone's like how many, how many episodes should I bank? When I first get started, I'm like I don't know. I had one episode and I uploaded it. You know like, just like, just do the thing, like stop, like there's no perfect way.
Speaker 1:So in 2015, there were a lot of women in tech groups that were popping up. I'm like, oh, I'm, that's me. Like I, you know, built an action sports company and I did, and so I go to these women tech groups and, unfortunately, all I heard was everything that is against us, like every like, all the, and I had no idea because I don't know. I just kind of like lived in this bubble of optimism where I'm like I want to start an action sports company, I want to start a social network, I want to build the first social network, and I just like went after. I was just, I just went after life, you know.
Speaker 1:So, discovering that, like, like women, like here's one, what women aren't able to raise money as frequently as men, right, statistics, what, what? In my fundraising journey, I barely knew what, what investment was. I just read a news article on YouTube getting Getting acquired by Google and that they were funded by these people called Sequoia. So I just flew to San Francisco without a meeting or knowing anything to me, with Sequoia, like you know it's like. But imagine if in my head I was like, oh, they're not gonna want to meet with me because statistically like I'm not you know, I'm not it. And so I wanted to create a positive piece of content to share examples of what's possible for women in tech globally. And I now interview I've been to over a hundred countries now interviewing women in tech From intern level to like multiple exits on her journey and how she got to where she is today.
Speaker 2:I know you've actually described the women in tech podcast is you want people to be able to hear these stories and then go? If she can do it, so can I, and it's like you're trying to empower people from those episodes you talk about, like what are we trying to, what stories are you pulling out and what do you want your audience to leave with?
Speaker 1:So, for we are a tech, I want it. It's like a discovery resource to know what's going on in Los Angeles, who to talk to, where to go, what to utilize for women in tech. It's for listeners to walk away feeling if she can do it, so can I. Like I just Both we are a tech and women in tech and all the other shows I create. I'm creating the brag podcast right now, which is business women reaching awe, inspiring greatness. Like it's just all about believing in oneself and being proud of your achievements. And Like this is assuming that a lot of people are like we're not assuming, it's seeing that a lot of people are really humble.
Speaker 1:When I Like too humble, like when I do the women in tech podcast, I can't tell you how many times A woman would have said something like and one did and others have said similar things. After the interview was done, they'd say, oh yeah, I was just on Forbes last week. I'm like, why didn't you mention it? I don't know? Like I just didn't want to Be through what. So I wanted to create I utilize podcasting to, I guess you know, challenge things that annoy me. So I wanted to create, like a safe place for women just to proudly share their achievements without, without reservation.
Speaker 2:So, after hearing all these stories where women didn't want to highlight some of their biggest achievements, that's what's got you to say, all right, I'm gonna start this brag podcast.
Speaker 1:I just yeah, I think as a culture, we don't share our wins enough, and so I just wanted I mean really I just want to show examples of sharing wins. It just to the as a culture, we don't have as many egotistical people.
Speaker 2:What are the things that I've heard you talk about quite a few times? Is Insecurity kind of this feeling of imposter syndrome that people kind of feel at the beginning of anything? Yeah what do you say to somebody who's thinking about starting a podcast, or they're thinking about starting to get up on stage at clubhouse or maybe submit their first? You know there's first talk to speak at a conference. Yeah, what do you say to that person?
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, I still get nervous every time I give a talk. Like it's. It's a, it's really energetically taxing and I have yet to feel comfortable before giving a talk. So everybody has that, no matter how seasoned you are. But what I would say is I am not religious, but one time I was listening to a pastor and he was sharing how, like the universe, you know, gives us gifts and they're for us to share with the world. So it's not up to us to like, decide not to share our gifts, like, like, that's just being selfish, and I thought that was a really interesting perspective. So, instead of like, oh, I'm nervous about what I will look like, or it's not about you, it's about sharing your gifts that you are so lucky to be given.
Speaker 2:So think reframing it not as hey, am I worthy of getting myself on stage and acting like I know everything. Instead, it's well. I have been given the opportunity to learn this stuff, so it's kind of a obligation for me to go and give back.
Speaker 1:I don't know about obligation. That's another like let's take that up with the universe.
Speaker 2:It's. It's a opportunity to share what we yeah yeah, I think that's a little more fair.
Speaker 1:But I choose to live a very purposeful life and sometimes my life actually oftentimes my life is like, really difficult. I go through a lot of challenges in order to live a very purposeful life, but I just feel like a really strong Commitment to, yeah, to just show up and serve. I can't explain it. It's like something inside my body where I just default to that and and you know, it gets confusing with match if you pay. I'm not one that pays a lot of attention to metrics and I proactively do my best not to pay attention.
Speaker 1:But I'm human so I'll have, like, my moments, you know, and I find whenever I have those moments where I'm paying attention to metrics, those are the moments I'm not serving, I'm looking at the wrong thing, and so I think it's really important to like, in this digital age we live in, everyone's all metriced out like they follow, vetting on follower accounts and Like, no, just show up to serve, show up to. If one person shows up value, that's a human being, value their life. You know people aren't a user or an email address, that they're human with their own problems, and if someone's posting hate online, they're probably hurting and lonely. Like you know, there's just Like let's, let's inspire compassion, unity, acknowledging others being seen, feeling seen.
Speaker 2:One of the things. I actually recently shared this on Twitter. It was a kind of like a cartoon, I think it's like a hundred and fifteen people.
Speaker 1:Yeah like.
Speaker 2:This is what a hundred and fifteen people look like, and so if you see your download numbers are a hundred and fifteen people don't think, wow, that's rough. It's nothing close to I don't know, mr Beast. Video on YouTube with millions of views.
Speaker 1:Like six years plus to get there.
Speaker 2:Right, exactly, I just like think of the. This photo, like this is what a hundred and fifteen people look like, and in podcasting it can get isolating that we are kind of talking into a mic and really hoping there's somebody listening on the other end and if you can reframe it not as oh, this is the numbers and I've got to continually hit new number, new levels. Instead think, wow, I've got a hundred and fifteen people that continually show up and listen to what I have to say and are finding some value. It really changes your relationship with the podcast.
Speaker 1:Well, that and that's why people I always suggest people start with their why and their purpose. The only reason you would care that you have a hundred fifteen listens and not something else is because you're potentially in it for the wrong reasons. You know, like you think you thought it was like a fast payday or something. If you're going to start podcasting, know your purpose and your why that you want to start podcasting.
Speaker 2:So what are some of the you know some good why's for why people would start a podcast, and maybe are there any red flags of people say I'm sorry, a podcast because of this. You might go, maybe don't.
Speaker 1:I mean get rich quick schemes.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I just think. I think it's like, and also very ego driven, I want to be famous or something.
Speaker 2:What are some good reasons to start a podcast? What are some good why's?
Speaker 1:I mean what I truly endorse and believe in is like unifying people and community and creating relationships and elevating and champion others. So I think a great, a great reason to start a podcast is in order, like a mindful podcast, in order to build community. Look in the day and age we live in and the amount of fears that we have now and all this stuff. We need more examples of love and unity and acceptance and kindness and and maybe even like safely listening to other people's stories in private. Maybe. People, some people want to get educated but they're afraid to ask the questions. So if you're asking the questions on their behalf, that's really helpful to to our you know, global community at large. So I would love if more people utilize podcasting in order to elevate others.
Speaker 1:I never, I never started podcasting to to be famous or I just really cared. The we Are Like Tech podcast. I started because in building the first Action Sports Social Network, that was really hard. That was like that was. It was really really hard and isolating. It was a hard, isolating journey and a lot of things, and it wasn't a thing to start a start, a start up.
Speaker 1:At that time I, I, it wasn't the cool thing, there was no HBO show, so like. So I, I don't know, I just wanted, I wanted to utilize my skill set of video production to or I should say, content production to elevate people in Los Angeles. So maybe they'd have an even like one percent easier than I did. And and that was my why is I just really wanted to like lessen even a tiny little bit of the entrepreneurial pain. And then the women in tech I shared earlier is you know to, so women believe in themselves more. I don't start a podcast thinking I want to be famous, like that's just. I don't know, that's weird. I mean, maybe, maybe that's judgey, I'm sorry. Like, maybe some people like that's their dream to be famous. It's not, it is not my dream.
Speaker 2:I often think back how much the world has changed in at least my lifetime, where, like, the Internet was not a thing. I mean, I guess the Internet existed but nobody was on it when I was young and now everybody is completely surrounded with the Internet. We see like a lot of the positives and the negatives, but one of the things that I see is incredibly positive that podcasting is able to do is there's a lot of like teaching and learning and stories and insight that is kind of just locked up in a few people's heads. There's people who reach new levels and any, any business, any community, any Creative endeavor, and it's really just a few lucky people who get to work with them. Maybe they get an accidental conversation and they learn some of what these you know, whether it be an artist or an entrepreneur, what they've learned. And then podcasting has made it like totally acceptable To go and ask almost anybody and say, hey, would you spend an hour sharing?
Speaker 2:yeah what's important to you, what are some of your top lessons, and then I will give it to anybody who wants it, and nobody has to ask permission or feel weird asking you for an hour of your time totally yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, how many times have you been asked like hey, can I pick your brain? Or like let's grab coffee? Like no, you may not pick my brain and I need to spend more time with my mom, so I will not grab coffee. You know like so like a podcast is. This is amazing way. That is a win win for both people involved and it's not necessarily like an energetically depleting activity inside, like you're able to serve beyond just the two people there.
Speaker 2:One of the other things that I realized kind of shifting gears, yeah, when I was researching this about you is you're always, you're a very early adopter.
Speaker 1:I noticed that too.
Speaker 2:That was not on purpose. You're getting into podcasting incredibly early. You are incredibly early to the LA tech scene. I mean, I think by the time that you were starting your business and you're getting into that scene, it couldn't have been more than a handful of people also starting tech.
Speaker 1:I created the LA tech scene along with 20 other people. So there was no LA tech scene like I create. I had my, my sports company and we had an office in Santa Monica. There was no startup anything and a bunch of us would get together at this guy's house, this investors house, and we'd have barbecues and it was about 20 of us it happened all the time and then eventually those 20 people Include me included did so much community work that now LA is one of the top tech cities in the world, which is wild. It's not like we set out to do that, we just did.
Speaker 2:And I found this. You also are obviously really early to clubhouse. You it was just like over and over you had a website. You were building websites before like Almost any of these website builders were out there. So I'm sure you were just like hand coding things with HTML and CSS, like HP Do you? Have an idea of what this is in your like. What is it about you or your personality that kind of spots these things and gets very into them early on?
Speaker 1:Yeah, first of all, I think it's luck, like I was also one of the early people on YouTube and on Twitter, and like it's it's super luck my newest one that I think a lot of people are going to adopt a stereo. But I don't know, I don't like necessarily make predictions what is stereo?
Speaker 2:really I have no idea what's there.
Speaker 1:Stop, ok, see, crazy, so cool. So stereo is like this amazing simplified podcasting app where you could record. Like someone could record their podcast on stereo and then they could upload it to a buzz Buzzsprout RSS feed as their podcast. But what's cool? It's like live podcasting sort of, but you're not intruded by the listener, so you're doing your podcast, they you both look like cartoon characters and you guys are having a conversation. So it's an audio social network that connects you with random people in the world and you could just have conversations. However, you could also plan to have a podcast episode, like you and I can schedule jumping on together and then they make it really easy to export your audio, really easy to have like little video clips like of the segment it's recorded. It is on stereo, but you could export the audio and upload it to your podcast distribution company and be on all other players as well.
Speaker 1:So I just think it's. I just think it's really really cool and the reason I think I think it's so easy to pick up like there's nothing intimidating like a mic. The audio quality is strangely like great and so because people aren't using mics and stuff like that, you know. So I think, and now they're booking a lot of influencers, like YouTube influencers, to be utilizing it and these tremendous YouTube is influencers. They only have like 20 people listening to their live thing, but they're doing it. So just knowing that you have these multi million YouTube influencers utilizing stereo and liking it and staying committed even though there's only 20 stereo listeners, you know and watching how it's like been growing over, I don't know. I also randomly created a tick tock a while ago and I posted my stereo and it went viral. I probably sent 40,000 people to stereo Like yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't know if I described it well. But but to your question of being reminds me of.
Speaker 2:So it sounds like it's a clubhouse podcast combination where you're getting you're doing an audio conversation, but now you're able to save it uploaded as a podcast and just one on one and then you've got this oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So it's just you and I like this. We should do a stereo later like this. Actually, I'd like to do a stereo with you later. So how I plan to use stereo is I'd like to have like casual conversations with people in my podcast network, just about podcasting, but super casual. That's the cool thing about stereo, like I could be doing the dishes or whatever, but the conversations being recorded and there's something that's so cool. It's not edited or anything, so there's something so cool that's organic about it that I don't know like I've been listening to Iraq, the YouTuber, iraq and his managers stereo episodes, learning so much I did they send you one. I think I sent it. I may have sent it to you.
Speaker 2:I don't think so, but if I would love to hear it.
Speaker 1:So if you want to feel, like I did send it to you in Twitter, dm, all the social platforms, I'm pretty sure.
Speaker 2:I will have to scroll back and find it. So stereo app is the new thing. I feel like you do have a good sense for what's coming next. If anyone's watching this, maybe a couple weeks from now you're going to, maybe you will know you're in the future, so you will know. So stereo become the next big thing.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I don't. So I'm not like I. As a high schooler I actually did read books about trend spotting. I was a high school journalist and but I've never considered myself a trend spotter. I just realized in retrospect like, wow, I really was on these, I was on the future before I knew it was going to be the future. So it's a.
Speaker 1:It's been weird, it's been like super weird, and I think I get it from my father Like he was an early adopter, so it's probably just like in my blood to be an early adopter as well. But, um, but I definitely start to get like I wouldn't say bored, just like kind of over it when something's popular I'm like and now let me find something more interesting. But it's not really because of the popularity, it's because the intimacy is lost and I really that's why I enjoy producing events that are like eight people rather than a few hundred people. I'm very good at producing an event for a few hundred people, but like what it really like makes me glee is is like eight people, just seeing it like a dinner party simulated vibe, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so people can connect and actually have conversations and kind of build the community, feel that you're looking for Right.
Speaker 1:So Clubhouse, twitter, like YouTube, like for YouTube, we'd go to VidCon and it was just like a handful of us and I knew all of them, you know like then Twitter, we would do Tweet Ups and it was so cool. And then you know, clubhouse is it's like, and then they get big and millions, and then it's like, and then it's like you don't really see your same friends anymore and the intimacy is gone.
Speaker 2:I love that way of thinking about it is that we're really just, even with all these new tools, that it's just trying to find a new way to reconnect with the people that we, you know, want to be around, and especially right now it's you know, COVID is still a pandemic in the States that we're all a little bit more separated than we'd like to be, and some of these tools are kind of helping us get back together Totally. So, for people thinking about podcasting right now, what would you, what would you tell them? They we've talked about you know. You've kind of got to just get started. We've talked a little bit about there's more opportunity than you think. What are some of the other basics that you would want to share with people? What things have you learned over eight years of podcasting? What things have you learned that you think people should know?
Speaker 1:First of all, we were talking about this a little bit like before the interview. I do think that there's something irreplaceable to podcast in person. I definitely consider myself an in-person show, so as soon as it feels comfortable to be back in person again, without a doubt I will race off of remote podcasting back to in-person. I'll give you one example. For my we Are Latex podcast I'd schedule two interviews back to back, knowing that they could do business together. So when they're crossing paths there's like a little like relationship making happening and then it increases the value of my podcast world overall. Right, that can't happen remotely. I try. Sometimes I have a conference line and I'll have one person call in back to back with the other person and I'll have them meet one another. I do that quite often, but it's also not the same and I never know if someone's going to think like, oh my gosh, what did I get myself into?
Speaker 2:Do you feel like that the interviews kind of go better when you're in-person or are there any tips that people can use when they're actually recording remotely to actually get more of that in-person vibe?
Speaker 1:Well, there's no chance that the audio quality would ever even come close to in-person, and I miss the in-person audio quality. I think you better build rapport for longer term relationships. I mean, there's just so much. There's like an energy and an enjoyment and a fun. A lot of YouTubers are still podcasting in-person, which you know they have to go through the whole thing. You know Rogan's still podcasting in-person. He has to, you know, do the whole COVID test and there's all these things that you have to go through and they're expensive and it's hard and even with that it's still scary. You don't know. You know, but that's how important in-person is. These people are going through all these humps now just to stay podcasting in-person. It's just podcasting is not a Zoom call.
Speaker 2:There's definitely. I have felt quite a bit of Zoom fatigue by myself after about a 13 month subspending all this time staring at a camera and not even often being able to look at the person's face. So I totally appreciate that.
Speaker 1:I can't wait to like look back at this period of life rather than like be living through the period of life.
Speaker 2:In 2026, like my daughter's going to walk up and like, find a mask. And she's going to be like what are these from? And I'll be like, oh, don't you remember, like when you were five, like there was a pandemic, we had to wear masks all the time? And she's like, oh yeah, I kind of remember weird. Like you know, someday we will be there looking back on this and finding masks all around our house constantly.
Speaker 1:I hope we get to look back sooner than later, but we'll table that. Very cute that you have a five year olds, by the way. I can't imagine having a five year old like during this time. I'm sure it's taking your dad skills to a new level.
Speaker 2:One of the other things that I see a lot of podcasters that's really difficult is there's two groups that we're afraid of when we start podcasting Maybe three, but one is just friends and family, like the people who we just are still connected to. On Facebook. I put stuff out and I cringe thinking somebody I knew in college is going to see it and think what does Alvin think he's all about? Like, putting himself up on YouTube, he looks like a dork. You know that they knew me and they will think ill of me. And then you've just got people who are mean online, who are going to leave mean reviews, no matter what, and then you've kind of got yourself that you know often we are our own worst critics, kind of looking and critiquing everything we do. Like what tips and strategies can people implement to get over each of those hurdles?
Speaker 1:I have a friend who's a celebrity and I asked him the same question because it's overwhelming that. So my friend is like a classically, like incredibly looking person, you know like superhero kind of thing, and he says online he gets things that he's like fat and ugly and you know so, even someone who's like textbook, like what they're supposed to look like to be attractive, gets all this hate. And he was saying, look, you can't control the hate. I would suggest having someone look over the comments instead of you not getting caught up in that kind of thing. Understand that people are lonely, so they're communicating something because they're lonely.
Speaker 1:It's really just about really doing your best to not pay attention to the wrong area and really stay confident and grounded in yourself and your own self identity and your own self worth and self value and do, if you're going to be even moderately in the spotlight, do an immense amount of work to build up that resilience. Arlen Hamilton says she doesn't want to put the haters out of a job too. Everyone needs a job. I thought that was really funny.
Speaker 2:That's a great quote.
Speaker 1:It's tough. You know, I was just watching something yesterday. This guy posted something horrific to Facebook. I saw it on the news and then the local news like went to go address you know the person about this horrific post. They're like oh no, I didn't mean, it wasn't what it. I would like I didn't mean that. They're like okay, there's no other way to take what you wrote. So people are just keyboard warriors, you know, and it sucks, I think it totally sucks.
Speaker 1:It completely makes me want to live in a forest, away from everything, like I'm not down, I'm not down with it, I'm scared of it myself, which is why I would have conversations like that with my friends. Like I just like, yeah, it just sucks. And you have to build as much self resilience. Maybe start therapy now.
Speaker 2:Preemptive therapy yeah. And the trolls come out.
Speaker 1:Totally.
Speaker 2:It helps to remember a lot of these people. What they're writing is much more reflective of their internal state than of what we've done. You put up a video and somebody you know has some. You get weird comments on your YouTube videos every time we put them up. And you know, like, if you go look at that person's comments, like most of them are very negative and it's probably because they're coming from, they're struggling and you know their way of. You know kind of venting that ends up somehow on your YouTube video. And if you're creating media to interact and encourage thousands, tens of thousands of people every episode, well then some percent of that audience is going to dislike you, maybe for something has nothing to do with you. They were just having a rough day and you became the target.
Speaker 1:Check out my girlfriend, Allie Spagnola. She has a YouTube channel and she does this awesome video tracking down one of her haters to find out who her hater actually is this person has been hating on her consistently for years.
Speaker 1:She decided like I'm going to figure out who this person is and why they're obsessed with me, and it's quite interesting. I'll jump to the end. It's a spoiler alert, but definitely watch it to get the full context of the story. It turns out to be like a father with a young child. It's bizarre that this person that's like, I think religious things like that. It's bizarre that someone would be so consistently sending her this very strange same hate comment, by the way, over and over and over again.
Speaker 2:There's a really good podcast that's kind of similar. Now I'm going to totally forget who the author was. There's a woman who's writing, for maybe might have been for Jezebel it was for a pretty popular blog that now I don't think is around anymore. She's writing and had kind of one guy who always showed up and even when her father passed he made a fake count that was her father and was commenting on things. That's awful.
Speaker 2:I think she talked about it on a blog and he realized, oh my gosh, I and my own weird ignorance have been venting out to someone who wasn't real in my mind Just at a blog. I was just yelling at this blog and I was doing things that were mean but to me were funny. Then he realized this is a woman and she's been struggling with the stuff I've been saying for years and they end up interviewing. She interviews him and they reconcile after he reached out and said hey, I'm allowing you to share my name and what I've done and I'm not anonymous anymore and I really want to apologize.
Speaker 2:It's this incredible, and now I've totally forgotten who it is, so I will have to link it in the description.
Speaker 1:I would love for you to.
Speaker 2:It was so powerful to hear, because we often like we imagine everyone is as evil as their worst moments, and then to see people kind of come together and there's like there's so much more to people than just the worst thing they ever said, or you know it was. That's interesting. We will have to link that for everybody.
Speaker 1:I totally want, yeah, I want, please. I want to hear that. But do you see how, like we were talking about at the beginning, utilize podcasting to elevate others? Like that is a great story being shared. That's not about someone becoming famous. That's about showing people what's possible and and helping empower compassion and understanding. And he like so great. So we're not talking about it because we want her to be more famous. We're talking about the impact it's had.
Speaker 2:Right, and podcasts because they're long for media Podcasting general. You know you can get people to listen to podcasts for 40 minutes and that's not all that surprising. If you're getting four and a half minutes of a YouTube view, that's really good. And so people spent so much more time invested in a podcast episode. And when you have that length of engagement, I think humanity really starts to shine through. When you hear someone's voice for a long period of time, you hear more of what they think we can only be fake for so long, and then eventually people start seeing who we really are. And once all that starts showing through, I think it's a lot more difficult to just fire off like a, you know, just a mean comment out someone's appearance or something Totally, totally so. Spree, thank you so much for doing this interview. I've really enjoyed it. I've really enjoyed hearing your perspective and hopefully everybody who's watching this is enjoying it as well. If people want to learn more about you, follow you, listen to the podcast when should they go?
Speaker 1:At first of all, does everybody know that they should be following you on Twitter, Like your tweets are like? Do people know that? Can you please tell them about your epicness on Twitter and how you massively report on things in the most complete detail?
Speaker 2:Twitter is like the new thing that I'm trying to do, so if anybody wants to come over and ask any questions or wants any help with podcasting, please come on over to my Twitter profile. I'd love to share what I've learned about podcasting and help you on your journey too. Maybe you need to be on the Brian podcast.
Speaker 1:Maybe you need to be on the Brian. No, I'm telling you this Twitter. No, this episode, though, is about helping others, and your Twitter is legitimately rarely helpful. Like it's. Like it's a rare thing to have high value tweets. So that your tweets are consistently like these research reports. You're like, in case you missed the Apple you know going live, let me just report it for you. I'm like what, thank you. Like, because I did have to do multiple things that day. Anyway, to reach me, speaking of Twitter or any social media, it's at ispridevora, or email me isprietheycom. So that's ESPRE at HEYcom, and I feel like my socials will probably be linked in the thing and I put in the show notes. I post social recaps on my Instagram and my Twitter, of like when I do my podcasters class club and stuff, so if you're looking for kind of tips and tricks in the podcasting world, my social media is where it's at.
Speaker 2:And we will put links to all of it in the show notes and in the YouTube description. So that everyone can follow you over there. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us and we really appreciate it, and until next time, everybody be podcasting. Bye.
