Buzzsprout Conversations
Welcome to Buzzsprout Conversations, the show where we dive into the real-life stories of podcasters in the middle of their podcasting journey.
You'll hear stories from famous podcasters as well as everyday podcasters, just like you, share stories about how podcasting has impacted them and the things they've learned.
Buzzsprout Conversations
Badr Milligan: How 11 Years of Podcasting Led to Unexpected Success
What if you could harness the power of podcasting to connect with a diverse audience, share your passions, and even open doors to new opportunities? Badr Milligan, the engaging host of the Short Box podcast and founder of Jax Podcast Roushee Night, is here to show us how it's done. Milligan's decade-long journey in podcasting is a treasure trove of insights and experiences that he readily shares, from the evolution of podcasting technology to the art of prepping and outlining for conversation podcasts.
Join us as we explore Milligan's unique promotional strategies that are deeply influenced by his love for music and hip hop. Discover the impact of physical flyers and street teams, and how they contributed to the success of his podcast, both at home and abroad. We also discuss his daring experiments with live shows and using platforms like TikTok, Reels, and YouTube Shorts. Milligan's pragmatic yet creative approach to marketing his podcasts is sure to inspire and educate budding podcasters.
But it's not all about the tech and tactics, Milligan's success story also illuminates the importance of creating value for the audience, and building trust with them. We delve into the monetization of podcasts, looking at how he launched a Patreon and expanded his network. This episode also features a riveting discussion with Adam Curry on the 'value for value' business model, emphasizing the importance of trust and respect towards your audience. So, tune in for an inspiring and informative episode that reveals what lies beyond the mic in the world of podcasting.
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I'm also a huge hip-hop head. I used to just think about my favorite artists and how a lot of them had street teams in the early 90s and in the heydays. So just the things of passing out flyers and posters. Actually, that might have been the first real promo I did and I put them in comic shops. We targeted all the ones here in Jax and then we would think, ok, what's the next town over? Meet the people working there, drop off a stack of flyers, put a poster up. The amount of times I can tell you where. We would get an email. Or I'd meet someone that was like dude, I love the show, pick up a flyer, I've seen your poster at the shop I go to. So it was like a sense of like we knew where our listeners are. Right, because, like you said, it's a very niche thing. Right, it's comic shop people being the biggest champion of your own show, the biggest advocate, being your own street team and just getting the word out.
Alban Brooke:Everybody. Welcome back to the channel. Today I'm joined by Bother Milligan. Bother is the host of the Short Box podcast. He's the founder of Jax Podcast Roushee Night, the local podcast meetup group here in Jacksonville, florida. He's a regular on the Buzzsprout channel and he was recently named the best podcast host in the 904, which is the Greater Jacksonville area. Bother, thank you so much for joining me.
Badr Milligan:Dude, it is my pleasure, as a fan of everything Buzzsprout does and the YouTube channel and interviews you've done. This is a big honor. Thank you, we appreciate you doing it. You've been podcasting for a while. December 2012 is when we finally put out our first episodes. 10 years officially is December 2012 is what I tell myself. So yeah, about 10 years plus.
Alban Brooke:For everyone watching. You're not misspeaking. That's over 13 years ago right now as we're recording this, or I guess not over 13. Well, I don't know how to do that. That's over 10 years.
Badr Milligan:Yeah, this year will be 11 solid years of podcasting.
Alban Brooke:So what's changed in 11 years of podcasting Dude?
Badr Milligan:everything, man, I think internally I've become a just more confident person. Podcasting was probably one of the better things I did in my life, in addition to joining the military and getting those benefits. Falling in love with this medium and having this passion and this hobby and being dedicated to it for so long. I've seen so many different benefits outside of monetary stuff but from just personal being more confident, having the ability to just chat with people and even getting the job I have now work a daytime job as a project manager in marketing, but one of my selling points was I had my podcast on my resume because I felt like all the skills I learned in the sense of collaboration and discussions and facilitating conversations was applicable to being a project manager.
Badr Milligan:So, yeah, a lot has changed, just, I think, internally. And then obviously, the tech right. I mentioned having to wait on a tech guy to set up some sort of website so we could have a hosting platform, and then he taught me XML and how to manually update the RSS feed. Now you've got platforms like BuzzFrow where it's as simple as just dragging the MP3 and letting it do the rest. I do not miss the days of mainly coding a notepad document or yeah, a note document.
Alban Brooke:Well, we're glad to take that little bit of it off your plate. How do you think that podcast image you more confident?
Badr Milligan:I guess in a few ways that's a good question. In a few ways, I'd say, because we were getting into interviewing. You know I was interviewing people obviously I had never met. You know I had to do research, I had to come prepared, I had to speak confidently too. You know I had to like lead the conversation and you never knew like what you know person's background walk of life was like until you really got into the conversation.
Badr Milligan:So even like just being spontaneous, but while also listening right, like kind of walking that fine line of listening, you know, queuing up the next question, maybe even letting the conversation go in places. So I think just being like just that, just you know that repetition, like practicing that muscle of like talking, being on, like aware, conscious, I think definitely just helped in the sense of like being just more confident and just like my everyday life, like you know, being out with friends and meeting new friends and like you know I sometimes I would have to catch myself like bother. This is not an interview, this is a normal person, just out here having a good drink. You don't need to go into a 30 minute, like you know, find out about every detail of their life, but just like that constant practice of like talking with people, and even among friends too. You know, like I think there's something about spending the last like, personally speaking, spending the last 10 plus years of constantly listening and being hypercritical of my obviously I kind of let go of the hypercritical after a while, but like something about hearing yourself talk and like understanding your mannerisms and certain ticks and things like I think.
Badr Milligan:You know, at first it's all very haunting, it's like the worst experience, like oh my God, I sound like that, I talk like that. But then you start accepting like these things about yourself that make yourself unique, cause now you're listening, cause I, you know, I run a show with co-hosts, so I'm also hearing their ticks and their unique attributes and appreciating, you know, just like these small audio things that make us all unique. I think there's a certain at some point I just became confident of like well, this is who I am at this point and I'm just gonna own it.
Alban Brooke:Before we get too far I guess I should we should bring up what's your podcast about. It's the short box podcast. What is?
Badr Milligan:the short box. So the short box is a comic book talk show that I've been doing for the last 10 years and I like to think that we've entertained listeners around the world with great conversations about comic books and pop culture topics. Founded by myself and two of my best friends, andrew Torres and Walter Gant. It was started honestly in a comic shop Years ago with my buddy Drew. Me and him are basically like long lost brothers. We love comics, the same music, the same movies. You know we have the same sense of humor. We then met Walt, who'd be coming to the shop when we'd work and we would have like a podcast without mics in this comic shop, like we'd close down the shop and we'd be right out front of the store still talking about this stuff. And then one day Walt got invited onto a podcast because he's got like this immaculate gift of gab. He could just talk to anyone about any topics and through his podcast he was doing, he allowed us to use the mics and we formed the short box.
Badr Milligan:Obviously, the cast has changed, you know my co-hosts have changed, but the core of it all has always been the same Talking about comic books and pop culture, interviewing some of the best creators in this industry. I think that's another been. Another awesome benefit of doing a podcast is that I've been able to pick the brains of, you know, writers and artists and creators in this industry that I, you know, have a huge sense of mental attachment to. So that's a short box. And then I was crazy enough about two years ago to launch another podcast called the Next Spin Podcast, and that one's all about record collecting and talking about music, and I do that one with a different set of friends who are also, you know, big talkers. We all love music and that one's more of like just a. You know that was my casual one, that's once a month. The short box is like you know I got that on a military routine Every Wednesday we've dropped an episode. You know that's the one I've been doing 10 plus years.
Alban Brooke:One of the things you mentioned in other videos or other podcasts I listened to was these are the shows that you would be doing, even if you didn't have a microphone, Like you were already doing these podcasts by talking to friends and discussing these topics and at some point you were like, why don't I just do this behind a microphone and put it out there for the world? How did you become, you know, realize there was this thing called podcasting back in 2012 and realize, like there might be other people out there who'd be interested in hearing this.
Badr Milligan:So Walt was part of this show called the Side Hustle, and they talked it was a group of Walt and his friends they would talk about they would record on Fridays. That was a unique thing and they would just talk about like the work week, like what was going on in politics. They were all a big sports buff, they loved music, so the conversations could go anywhere and I believe Walt was my introduction Cause he would tell us, like check out the Side Hustle as a podcast and it's like you know, this was 20, I think 2011, 2012, early 2012. So I was the biggest fan of that show, like I would tune in. I would text Walt if they missed a date, like cause obviously they weren't too sure of like what it could become, but I was like so enthralled with it, even though I was talking to Walt like every week, I loved the banter of this co-host and obviously I started finding like my own podcast to listen to.
Badr Milligan:Like there was a one that Kevin Smith was doing that he still does. It's called Fat man on Batman. That was like all about Batman and comic books. And then I found like a hip hop one called One Epstein. So I had I started finding my own like weekly listens and you know I was using, you know, apple podcasts and I was actually downloading the MP3s and putting them on like my iPod or stuff like that. So you know through Walt, and then finding my own and just and there wasn't. You know it was kind of a scarce selection but I just started thinking like what are my hobbies, and you know, and then finding like names that I was familiar with.
Alban Brooke:That's really cool. One of the unique things you've done, vodder, is that you've been running a similar style podcast for over 10 years. You've been doing a conversation podcast, multiple co-hosts. Things have changed over the years, but I feel like, more than anyone, you've had a ton of practice, or 300 episodes, kind of wrangling multiple co-hosts into a single conversation. What have you learned since you've?
Badr Milligan:been doing that, I ended up learning to get a feel for the strength and weaknesses of different people. I feel like I've always kind of been a good listener, at least my mom. Well, my mom might disagree with you, that's certainly you know. I wasn't maybe the best, but I think it made me a better listener and there is just something intimate about listening to people through headphones, especially when you're editing and trying to polish something and you know making certain executive decisions about. You know what stays, what goes, what, you know what's filler or you know what you let ride out. So I think it made me a better listener and someone that and also it gave me the ability to, you know, shine a spotlight on people.
Badr Milligan:Certain strengths Like, for example, like my co-Sazar he's extremely funny, he's got, you know, he can give you, he could drop a monologue, a very thoughtful, thought-provoking monologue at the you know, the drop of a hat. So you know, I know that Sazar is really good on the fly. Ed is a researcher like me. He's you know, he's doing homework before we record. He's got a just a vast knowledge of just stuff. So I'll look to Ed, you know, I'll shine a spotlight on Ed when it's time to like, get factual or share some tidbits.
Badr Milligan:Ashley is a little more reserved, a little more quiet. I know that we can't overpower her or we can't. You know we should avoid interrupting her when she's on, like, when she's on a roll, like you know. Take a step back, let her shine. So I think it just made me you know more in tune with, like, people's strengths and personalities. And I even carry that over to like my job. You know I mentioned I'm a project manager. A big chunk of that is facilitating meetings. You don't do a lot of talking yourself. You kind of much like a podcast or interview. You set up the topics, you know, you throw out the topics out there and you know you kind of guide the conversation and I utilize that, you know, on my day to day just understanding like, okay, what is this person good at? What are they comfortable with? Who's the subject matter expert? Who can take this? Who probably shouldn't, you know, dive into this topic?
Alban Brooke:Yeah, one thing you just mentioned there was prep. I think there's quite a few people who hear the conversation podcast or kind of round table discussion, and they think this is totally impromptu, it's not scripted, just like four friends are on a couch and we turned on the mic and that's not what your show is. So what does prep look like for a conversation podcast?
Badr Milligan:You know, in the early days we were not prepping at all Me, drew and Wol. It's became. It was like really it's night and day. Now, when I listened back and to be honest, I, me, wol and Drew still record, like they're still part of the show. Hell, I think two weeks no, last week or two weeks ago me and Drew drove down to Orlando to record a fault, and that one was just strictly casual.
Badr Milligan:Then, whenever I got real serious about podcasting, I knew that it was time to, like you know I need to have topics. You know, if I'm gonna speak to news or changes in the industry or our headlines, I should be like a little more informed. And I'd say that was such a big help in just fine tuning and polishing the show. Like, yeah, we can still, you know, we can still have jokes and go down tangents and rabbit holes and things like that. But as someone that's like organized and you know I've become a stickler for, like you know, certain flows. Having some sort of outline, you know, helps out tremendously, cause at least you know what the next goal is, what the next target is. Like we can spend some time here, but let's move on to the next one and prep for me.
Badr Milligan:Now I'll say I don't know why I was so hesitant, you know, for all these years, to getting into like the Google suite. Like I was still using Excel at some point to like share things out. And then, you know, my girlfriend Blythe was like you should just be using Google Docs in. You know the Google suite. There's no reason for you to be using Excel. In a word, no one has that program. It's 2018, butter, come on. So, honestly, google Docs is my go-to tool for outlines.
Badr Milligan:I realized that once I had a central place where I could put my thoughts about how an episode flow, topics and, you know, even sharing, like articles that I'm reading and, you know, sharing my bullet points and notes with my team, made a tremendous change. I'll never forget Ashley pulling me to the side and saying, like hey, those outlines are great. Like I know I can, I know what to expect, I know what points you might bring up and if I disagree or agree, like, I have a basis to work from. So it's been tremendous just having an outline and letting, like your natural personalities do the rest Right. Like your foundation is the outline, knowing what you're going to talk about the topics, and just letting your personality do the rest, filling the cracks and, like you know, give it some color and some life.
Alban Brooke:There's a bit of once, there's some structure, there's a little bit more freedom to just be yourself in the moment. If you don't have a little bit of that, here are the four topics we're going to go through. Here's the movie we're talking about, the comic book series we're talking about. If you don't have that instead, now you're spending a lot of your brain space thinking, well, what am I going to say next? Okay, what point could we bring up? Okay, we haven't talked about this video. I think we should talk about this video. Okay, if no one's seen it. Like there's so much prep that's going on in your brain. But once you know, there's this outline in a Google doc and it says these are the five things we're talking about today. Now you can just be you in the moment, and I think it leads to a much more authentic version of the co-hosts. And I don't know you tell me how does this affect you on the editing side, because I'm sure has a big impact.
Badr Milligan:On the editing side, it helps tremendously, especially in this day and age where you're thinking social clips, you're thinking like sound bites from the podcast to use to promote the show. So having an outline I know and let me take a step back for editing I know where we're at. I know this chunk of this audio is for this topic. I can apply some timestamps. I also know hey, this is topical, this will probably get a buzz on social media.
Badr Milligan:I know that this topic is relevant and then also have an outline saves you time in editing because, to your point, if you don't have an outline, it's just kind of rambling right, like you're kind of just coming on the fly over these topics and maybe you end up spending way too much time on one and not enough time on the other. I think it's just overall, just it's a huge time saver to have an outline to work from on the editing side. You just know the flow and the certain beats and you can make a smarter decisions about what stays and what goes, and does this meet the goal of the episode?
Alban Brooke:You're very process-oriented, potter. I think this is probably a bit of your military background, but also some of your project management, day-to-day job. 10 years in, what does the process look like for you From going to do an episode next week, prep, recording, editing, publishing, through the whole thing? Could you run us like at a high level? What does that process look like?
Badr Milligan:It's changed a little bit because some of my co-hosts they've all started having kids, so like the team's down to a little more slimmer. I'm doing a lot more interviews to the process Instead of thinking like holistically and in the entire team I've been able to kind of just it's been a little malleable of just myself, but the process or the longest time that was like just working for us is we'd record on Sundays. So by Monday, tuesday, I had a read. I knew what the topic was gonna be. I kind of got into a good group. If we weren't having interviews, we were gonna talk about news and headlines. If it wasn't news and headlines, it was gonna be a comic book review or we might do a movie review.
Badr Milligan:It was like I kind of had certain buckets about what are the short box episodes, interviews, news, headlines, movie reviews, book reviews. Those are the certain buckets. So Monday, tuesday, I'd text a group hey guys, sunday at one o'clock here's the topic I'll have an outline by no later than Friday, usually Wednesday, thursday I'll actually get the Google Doc outline made that gives them all of Friday and Saturday to kind of prep. And then Sunday we record at one o'clock, which gives me it used to give me all of Sunday night and then Monday as well to edit. So I would edit those two days, usually by Tuesday. I wanna put it up by on Patreon. It's also ready to go. It's scheduled for a Wednesday drop on Buzzsprout. Wednesday I'll actually start cutting promo and things like that. So it was like really rinse and repeat your big days being, like I said, friday having the outline done, sunday, recording Monday, tuesday, editing Tuesday, wednesday, kind of cutting promos and thinking about the next episode.
Alban Brooke:That's really cool. One thing you kind of hint at a little bit there is some of the promo stuff and you've done a lot of interesting things around growing your podcast. I think some of this comes from, like the subject matter, comic books or the physical medium. You I use you as an example all the time because you've done a lot of promo around physical objects.
Badr Milligan:Can you tell me some of these stories? I think a lot of that inspiration comes from love music. I'm also a huge hip hop head. I used to just think about like my favorite record labels and my favorite artists and how a lot of them had like street teams in the early 90s and in the heydays. So just the things of like passing out flyers and posters. That was actually. That might've been like the first real promo I did. I got some terribly designed posters and flyers and I put them in comic shops.
Badr Milligan:Me and Drew would just would use Saturdays, we'd link up on Saturdays and just drive to a comic shop we targeted all the ones here in Jax and then we would think like, okay, what's the next town over, let's go there. So Daytona would be the next week and we'd go to comic shop. You know, meet the people working there, drop off a stack of flyers, put a poster up the amount of times I can tell you where we would get an email or I'd meet someone that was like dude, I love the show, pick up a flyer or a senior poster at the shop I go to. So it was like a sense of like, where are? We knew where our listeners are right Cause, like you said, it's a very niche thing.
Badr Milligan:Right, it's. It's comic shop people. We're comic people ourselves. We know how they think they're going to be at the shop, like every Wednesday or enough times to hopefully see this. So things like the physical. I still print flyers to this day when I go to the shop, like for free comic book day. Last week I gave Ben a stack of flyers like dude, if you don't mind putting this in the in a bag for every single person you know.
Alban Brooke:You had one time, I think, where you were like overseas in Germany or something right.
Badr Milligan:That's right. Thank you for reminding me that. Okay, on the topic of that, anytime, how? The Vancouver trip is a good example. I always pack a stack of flyers like little, oh yeah, little flyers, right, cause I know when I go travel, there's two things I'm definitely going to do. Well, maybe three. I'm going to eat as much food as I humanly can. Right, I'm going to eat my weight and good food, but I'm also going to go to a record shop and I'm also going to go to a comic shop, cause I love visiting other countries, other states, shops and seeing how they do things.
Badr Milligan:For my first deployment, when I was still in the Air Force and you know, cesar was my co you know my co-host, cesar, was also in the same unit. He's actually a big reason why I got into the Air National Guard. But in 2015, we had our first deployment. It was my first deployment at that and we went over to Europe. We went to. It was three months one and a half months in Holland and then the last half in Bulgaria, and so me and C had to take a little break from the podcast, but my co-host kept it running. But I took a bunch of flyers and on our downtime we'd go to comic shops just drop them off, and one, I think when we were in Holland it was free comic book day and we were like dude, we gotta like check out how Holland does free comic book day.
Badr Milligan:So we went to the shop and they had a signing with an artist that we were both huge fans of. We were like, whoa, what are the chances of us being here at this time? And I took a shot. I asked the owner hey, I'm from America. I got a comic podcast. I remember him thinking like what is that? Like I remember actually him thinking like kind of being like kind of amazed, like whoa, these American guys, like you know, got a show. So we got to use that to our advantage. And he was like, oh, some guy from IGN Netherland's is here, he's gonna do an interview. Talk to him. And we talked to him and he was like, well, how about you guys? How about we just do a joint podcast together? And you know, I got a sweet interview.
Badr Milligan:It was actually really funny because he had a little hand recorded mic and he was waiting on the line to die down. And the line eventually did die down, but there was no quiet place in the shop to record the interview. So we stepped right outside the shop and we huddled. It was myself, cesar I think the guy's name was Jay and then the artist and his manager. We all huddled up together across the street from the shop. It was raining slightly, so we were underneath this cover and there was a little recorder in the middle and me and Cesar, like this is the coolest thing ever. This interview is gonna go on IGN Netherland's and we're going to get the audio for ourselves. So it just like you know, those moments of just always kind of being in, like you know being the biggest champion of your own show, the biggest advocate, being your own street team, and you know just getting the word out.
Alban Brooke:Correct me if I'm wrong. I remember you say once you can actually still go back to your stats on Buzzsprout and look at some of these different countries and be like there it is. There's a little pocket of the Netherlands. There's a little pocket over here in Bulgaria.
Badr Milligan:Yeah, it's definitely. I always get a little chuckle anytime I see it from like Holland or the Netherlands and even like my little, like one of my best friends, greg Parrish, who I met actually in bootcamp and he ended up being the. He made our first intro song. He actually made the first five, six intro songs. He became like our go-to music guy because he produced, he was doing a lot of deployments himself and I used to just give him like short box promo, like a hat, a shirt, whatever we got, and he would wear it and at bases and he would meet other nerds right. It was kind of like a calling card, like if you knew what the shirt was or cause we would have the infinity gauntlet. You know, he would spread the word too. So for a while I was getting a lot of, or I was getting plays in like Saudi Arabia and Nandoa and all of that and it was like, oh, that's Greg's work right there.
Alban Brooke:It's so fun when you do a little marketing push and you can see it and you know exactly where it came from, Whether it be like the day that a big promotion drops or you're looking at the stats, you're go. I know when it's Saudi Arabia, I know where we got those listeners from.
Badr Milligan:Maybe the most proudest promo or, you know, just thinking outside the box in the sense of getting the word out and, you know, doing it via the show was there was a stint from 20, let's say like 18, 19, where we were doing so many live shows. We were like our first one was done at the Museum of Science a history here in Jax. They had a the science of superheroes exhibit and I talked them into letting us do like a live show and that was our first one. And then, like a few months later, we did a live show at a comic shop, cause it was like this makes sense, why haven't we done this before?
Badr Milligan:And then we did started doing like the live shows at movie openings, like we would team up with Sunray Anytime they had a Marvel movie. We'd offer to, you know, intro the movie, do some giveaways and then do a live show right after. And I gotta say those were probably some of the funnest times of doing the podcast and all 10, 11 years doing that run of just. It felt like live shows once a quarter and they were so thrilling, right, just like being in front of like a live audience, and I know that played a big role in getting our name out Cause then people could put you know the faces to the voices, and that was awesome.
Alban Brooke:I just did an interview with Tom Buck. He kind of talked about the crossover between being a teacher and being able to see, like, what resonates with students and what doesn't, and how. That translated to him on YouTube and it sounds like you're kind of saying the same thing. You were a podcaster and then the live shows you got to actually see the energy in real time from your audience.
Badr Milligan:Yeah, and you feed off that so well and you know you get like a second, third win. I don't know. You get like energized in the moment when a joke hits and you've got like a group of you know an audience laughing and reacting, it's all. And then you know the ability to also play off the audience and have them involved too. Like I think a majority of our shows we would do a little Q and A and you know let them know like hey, you're going to be on the show next week and of course people get excited.
Badr Milligan:Now they're sharing the show, telling their friends and you know it was just all around beneficial. I mean a lot of prep work in the sense of like really making sure that your outline was on point, cause now you know you can't run over the time. If you got 45 minutes, you got 45 minutes Cause now you've got like staff involved. You know they got to shut down the building and things like that. So having a very it was just like it really pushed us to like perfect our chemistry, perfect the show, and I I bet you there's a. I bet you I could finally find a correlation between the quality of shows and our chemistry, pre and post. You know that the live shows.
Alban Brooke:You've also been doing quite a bit recently with TikTok and Reels and YouTube shorts. What is those experiments looked?
Badr Milligan:like I'm going to tell you this. I think it's just because of how long I've been editing. Editing, I think it's said to say for a lot of podcasters that you know do everything for their show. Editing is always, like you know, that's a tough part, right, like sitting down, and Especially when you're as OCD as I am about certain things that can be very time-consuming, that can feel like you're just stuck in this void. Granted, I've found ways to like really improve it, make it faster and have a lot more fun with it.
Badr Milligan:Cutting promos in video, especially for social clips, is so it's been a fun. I can try new things, different graphics. I'm also looking at like I watch a lot of YouTube channels as well, seeing, like what they do, how it works, incorporating that on a much smaller scale as well, and I found that, like our growth too, you know, has definitely benefited in the you know download stats and you know, new listeners coming from you know, especially like TikTok for myself, matter of fact, I met someone over the weekend when I was at recording some interviews at Free Comic Book Day. This guy, I was walked up. I was like, hey, can I interview you? He was like I'm gonna say no to the interview because I'm shy as hell, but I just want to say I came across your content on TikTok. I love it, keep on doing what you're doing and you know it made it so worth it right, like, whenever you get one of those, it makes it so worth it and I just I genuinely have fun listening to an episode. You know, and making that Having made that a part of my process really felt seamless Because you're listening back One.
Badr Milligan:You already know what your outline looked like. As you wrote the outline, you also lived in the moment of recording the podcast. And then there's this third layer of like listening back and like making notes. And you know, even when I'm recording, sometimes I know a moment is a clip, sometimes I'm like I'm gonna make sure this is like a promo. I cut and you know, and I think it. Just you know, obviously we don't do a lot of live shows now, but I feel like using TikTok and making the reels and videos is like giving us a certain personality, insight into like who we are, like putting faces to the voices. You know like, yeah, I think it's an interesting tool and I highly recommend, you know, more people utilize, you know, promos and things like that for their podcasts. I know it's benefited us big time.
Alban Brooke:Are there other marketing strategies that you've played with and at one point you're doing some ads. Did that ever turn into anything?
Badr Milligan:So it could either be one of two things. I am a big believer in running ads on podcast platforms Because one thing about like that TikTok or that interaction, for example, there's no way that I could have correlated the two, right, like the success of a certain video or something meaning how many subscribers you know, there's no way for me to be of this pinpoint where that guy Would video. Finally, you know, got him to check out the podcast, etc. But so I don't run a lot of ads on, like social media, unless I'm doing like a giveaway or when we were doing live events, I would always, like you know, boost the post to push and make sure people came out for the live show, etc. But I'm a big advocate and believer in buying ads in podcast platforms like Overcast or Podcast Addict, even Buzzsprout. I've purchased a few ads on Buzzsprout and to me that is a good use of money because by the end of the ad most of them run for like a month, right, you get to see like a direct correlation of here's how many subscribers, here's how many people saw your ad, clicked it and then decided to subscribe. And you know, on average I've gotten from, you know, low end 20 to high end of like 32.
Badr Milligan:And when you think about it, that's like man, that's to pay money to just run an ad and get some subscribers. I mean, it's not a lot of. You know, it's not rocket science, it's not a lot of work, but I do think it's probably the best use of your money if you're looking to like, really push and promote and, you know, go about that means of marketing because it's because once again, you're going right to where your audience is. You know, like I know, that comic shops work because you know that is my niche. But from a general standpoint, you know, this is where podcasters are. Like you're not on Overcast or Podcast Addict If you're not. You know, if you don't listen to podcasts, that just doesn't make any sense. But you could be on TikTok for any other reason, right, it's not, it's a little too wide, you know. So just kind of going in on a focused route.
Alban Brooke:There were years that the only way you could get somebody to listen to your podcast because most people weren't listening to podcasts yet try to pull up the Apple Podcasts app on their phone and be like all right, this purple app like click it and we could search for anything that you want, and they're like well, they're like for free, like they expected to have to pay, and you'd pull up in a show and say here's mine. You not only had to overcome the hurdle of you would want to listen to this particular show, but also to overcome the hurdle of I don't have any idea about why I would listen to a show. I've already got the radio, I've already have music and you're trying to sell them on a whole new medium. The benefit of using podcast apps or advertising on other podcasts is these are already podcast listeners, so they know. Step one is done and now all you have to do is say, hey, this second show, this is a show that you might be into.
Badr Milligan:Agreed 100%. And you just brought back some flashbacks of basically playing tech support early on in those podcast days, like meeting people, them saying, so what do you do? I'm like, oh, I do a podcast and I'm like, what is that? Oh, you know that purple icon on your iPhone that you've probably have hidden or you've tried to delete. Yeah, this is what it does. And you know, like walking, I vividly remember walking people through podcasts where the dad told my dad about it.
Badr Milligan:He was like, oh, what you know? Even like for the longest time I had to, I just told my mom you know, mom, it's Sunday. I'm going to go record my talk show. My radio show is what I would call it, because it was the closest thing that made sense for her that she could wrap her head around. You know what I was doing. But, yeah, I've had a lot of luck with. I try to run an ad, you know, once a month. I look at that as an extra boost. Like, really, the hard work to me comes into, you know, establishing a brand online and you know cutting those promos and then those reels and those videos, and you know, to me that's fun. The ads to me is just an extra boost. You know, if I've got the disposal income, I'll run an ad for a month. You know, try to get some new subscribers, hope they stick around. But when you look at the cost I think the cost per click, you know, for running an ad it's like it comes out to be a pretty good deal.
Alban Brooke:Do you justify that because you're having a ton of fun podcasting, or is it that you can kind of see on the back end I'm putting money in and then I get money out on the monetization side?
Badr Milligan:I don't know if it's too much on the latter versus the form I think I have. Obviously I, you know, love podcasting. I think I'm a little crazy at this point about it. I don't know what I would do without it. I don't know if I can correlate or justify sometimes a return on investment. I don't know how many of our patrons you know Patreon subscribers or paid listeners came from those ads. I think there's just a sense of like maybe.
Badr Milligan:I don't know, maybe blind hope of, like you know, if you know one Patreon subscriber out of you know these hundred of subscribers is, you know, is enough, but I think it really just falls into that. I do enjoy podcasting, I do enjoy like having this brand and, you know, having these loyal listeners and I'm just looking to continue growing it. And you know, if they become, you know, if I get a return on investment or I get a paid subscriber, then awesome. But it's not. I don't think it's my, you know, most immediate goal when I buy an ad. I think, for at this point it's like you got to, you got to get the word out how you can right yeah you absolutely do have to get the word out.
Alban Brooke:I love the way you think about monetization because, on one hand, you have monetized a handful of different ways and we should get into all of those. On the other, you took five years before you ever monetized and you were doing this for the joy of it and you were getting a lot of like non-monetary benefits from the podcast. I know you probably won't bring all of these up, but like you've had to interview some really cool people, definitely built a name for yourself in the local community, but also large, your comic book community. You have to do a TEDx event. There's lots of events now where the short box has some kind of presence, because you've been doing this for 10 years. So when you continuously show up, you start to get some cool opportunities.
Badr Milligan:Yeah, well said, I think at some point I just realized that you know I wasn't going to be, you know I wasn't going to get rich off this, I don't, you know and it was going to take a lot to replace, like you know, my day-to-day job and you know for me to take that jump. So I kind of just settled on you know. All right, well, if I'm not going to make a bunch of money on this, at least let me cover my costs of what I, you know, paid to actually run a podcast and let me focus on opportunities. Right? If I can't, if I, if I can't get a bunch of money, then let me just focus. That was never honestly about money. To your point I was.
Badr Milligan:I had been podcasting five, six years before I even decided to launch. I think I'd be launching a Patreon in 2017 or something like that and it was only because, at that point, we had built such a loyal fan base that were looking to support us in some way. We had no merch, I think we had like a T Republic or something like that but we had no like means of like people giving us money or supporting us financially and eventually, one of our listeners a good friend of mine, nick Wagner, who runs a very successful he's a super smart business guy. He runs a really successful tattoo shop. He even owned the comic shop I used to work at at some point. He was a huge fan of the show, always a big, like, a huge advocate, always like our biggest champion. And one day he was like dude, stop playing around, set up a Patreon so people can like support, like we want to support. He was like I remember saying I think I speak on behalf of the short box nation. We want to support you guys, let us give you our money in some way. So I just, you know, once I got over like, okay, well, now I'm asking people for money. You know, am I gonna get heartbroken if it's, you know, like one person? I kind of brushed all that through the side and said, just let it happen. If someone supports or wants to give us their money of their own, free, will, awesome, launch the Patreon. We had like I want to say, like 20 people sign up within like the first, like half a year or something like that. So it was like, oh man, this is okay. Well, let's see what else we can do.
Badr Milligan:And then we eventually started like thinking outside the box of like oh, this, you know, this cause, ashley and Ed are both artists. I was like, well, let's go out and create like unique prints, let's posters and things like that that people can support, you know, to have like a piece of the short box. So there was that, but mainly it opened up just the doors to a lot of different opportunities. Right, like I was already going to comic conventions. Well, I started just reaching out to people that would book the guests and asking like, hey, can I help, you know, run a panel or host a panel? All I ask in return is I just get, I get to keep the audio recorded, right. So now I'm thinking of, like, well, opportunities that'll also just feedback into the show itself, kind of like, you know just this machine, so I would.
Badr Milligan:Now I was getting invited to things like comic conventions to host panels with creators that maybe I maybe didn't have a shot with or they're not very into, like you know, doing interviews.
Badr Milligan:Well, now there was a means of me getting interviews and content to feedback into the show. And now people are wanting to support like, oh, let me sign up for the Patreon, help these guys out, you know, upgrade the equipment, cover, like, their travel costs, because I know I'm going to get you know something, you know, cool content in return. But yeah, between, like the comic conventions, you know, being able to speak at TEDx, I think once I realized that I wasn't just a podcast host but I could, I could apply those same skills of facilitating a conversation, having a good time, like you know I, to your point, like I started thinking more so as a brand you know myself as a brand I was like, well, I could take these skills anywhere that needs someone to hop on a mic, like I've been doing it over 10 years. How much different could it be in front of a person?
Alban Brooke:So, yeah, thinking, having that mindset, you know, thinking outside of the box of just seeing dollar signs, but, you know, seeking opportunities that would just boost the brand and the podcast itself was you know, huge Cool thing about the Patreon is that somebody else told you to set it up, because I think there's a lot of podcasters who don't set up a Patreon or that don't set up a Buzzsprout subscription because they think there's probably nobody else.
Alban Brooke:Nobody really wants to give money to it and I'm gonna feel weird if I start asking On the other side as a listener, like one of my favorite shows a few years ago just stopped and the two of us were like, well, we're not making any money, Doesn't seem like this is going anywhere. So I don't really know why we'd keep doing it. The whole time was thinking I should reach out to them and tell them hey, set up a Patreon, set up a way that I can start giving you money, because it was 45 minutes once a week where I was cracking up and I was having a great time and I thought it was amazing. And now that thing has disappeared I would gladly pay $5 a week for that.
Badr Milligan:When you look at the costs that you're asking someone, I think once I got over that initial kind of awkward thing of like hey, you know, can we get like some money to help us out? It's a very time consuming. You know, I think once you just started becoming honest and confident too, of like, look, and at that point I had a little more clout to stand on right, it's like guys been doing this five, six years. You know, obviously it's costing us more money too to produce the show. We want to make sure we give me the best quality. So now you're thinking about equipment, hosting fees and just the time itself, right, like the time I'm spending editing we all are sorry doing the podcast editing, coming up with ideas and just the energy you give to it.
Badr Milligan:I guess I just stopped feeling bad about asking for. You know, I think our highest tier at the time was like nine bucks and then I eventually bumped it down to seven. You know, it's like seven, five bucks, even two bucks a month. I guess I just got over like I was like you know what? I'm just gonna put it out there and it's a free show anyways. You can always skip it too If you want. You can skip my you know my shameless plugs and just go on to the main stuff. It's never gonna stop, you know, you from enjoying the show. But I think, just having a confidence in the product that you're putting out, if you know you're putting out a good product, no-transcript to ask for a little help. You know, financial support to keep the lights on.
Alban Brooke:Adam Curry is the co-founder of podcasting like the actual podcasting spec, co-founder of podcasting 2.0, which is trying to innovate on the podcasting spec and move podcasting forward, and the pod father and he also started this thing called value for value. And it's just hey, I'm giving you something, you get it for free. There's no obligation, there's no string attached. If you get some value, you determine what that's worth for you and then you can give that value back. It's such a positive thing to do because for some people $2 is a lot of money.
Alban Brooke:There was a period in my life where if I was giving $2 a month to a podcast, that would have been really tight. But now if I'm going oh, $5, $10 a week for my favorite show, of course I would do that. Allow your audience to set the price Like what value are you getting from this and what is it worth to you and what's appropriate, and allow your audience to come alongside you. That's why I was so excited when we built Plus Brow subscriptions, because you just turn it on and you don't have to do anything else and all that happens is if people want to do it, then they can give you money. If no one wants to do it. You never have to think about it again. You just move on with your life.
Badr Milligan:Agreed, agreed, and I think also just having the security of a full-time job took a lot of that pressure off too, where I got to just have a little fun with it, like making jokes about supporting, just like making it a little more fun. It didn't feel like I was pressuring any of the listeners, we just had a good time and a lot of self-defeating humor that goes into us asking for money, but we also made it really worth it. That was something that was like I had a hard time wrapping my mind around when I first launched a Patreon. It's like always questioning if it was worth it to anyone. Like am I putting out enough bonus episodes? Are they getting these episodes early? I'm promising early access. I'm telling them they'll get this.
Badr Milligan:Like I was the first couple of months of that Patreon launch. It was like it was a lot of pressure. I was putting myself through a lot of pressure of trying to think of, you know, a little bit of doubt, but also like thinking about things that maybe I didn't need to, yeah, overthinking how people felt about the content we were putting out. But our numbers had never dropped and I think I started like doing surveys and I was like, hey, you guys getting enough bonus episodes? And they were. And I think some of the sponsors I got was like I'm almost getting too much content for you guys. I'm gonna keep up and you know, I'm just kind of trusting in. I think I started just trusting myself a little more. I'm putting out quality content. I think the people can see that this is not a cash grab and just kind of believing in the audience that I built up, that they knew where my heart was at.
Alban Brooke:Yeah, the two to $7 a month. Cash grab doesn't ever seem to pay off.
Badr Milligan:Well, I'll say one guy I remember well, one of our listeners was like he was like dude, I'm paying this much for this podcast here and they haven't put anything out in like months. And I'm trying to keep up with what you're putting out.
Alban Brooke:Yeah, so that was really good. Another thing and I think this was probably how we first got connected that you did in 2018, I think you started Jack's Podcasters Unite, which is the local Jacksonville chapter, the Jacksonville Meetup Group of podcasters. What got you to start that? It was April 2018.
Badr Milligan:And it was myself, life Bromleaf, and we had a I call them our hidden third member. You know like in very rich political families, there was always like that one black sheep, son that they're like we'll pay you to, like stay out of the cameras.
Alban Brooke:That is our Ryan Paul Thompson. It's like the third Bush son and you're like, oh, I know about the two, what? There's a third, ryan Paul.
Badr Milligan:Thompson, being that Me and Life always joke. He's like a black sheep child. It's like Ryan let us give this. But no, ryan was kind of like an advisor.
Badr Milligan:And I remembered talking to Life because obviously she's been podcasting for a long time, almost as long as I have and I remember I had this idea, like I think that another meetup series that was called the Artist, local Jacks Artist Meetups and it was like you know, graffiti artists, painters and stuff like that. And I remember thinking like man, I wonder if I started meeting more podcasters like here and there. You know, it was almost like a secret club. Oh, you do podcasts. Oh, me too. We'll check out, you know this and that. So I just had an idea, like I wonder if I just put the call out, like gave us a location to meet up, a time and date, who would show up? And we did our first meetup in April 2018 at it's now closed, but it was space 42, huge gallery, and like it was this warehouse, plenty of space. I put the word out. I think I did like a Facebook event page and the turnout was so overwhelming.
Badr Milligan:I remember being in that moment and it was like you know, we had a sign-in sheet and we ran. I only had like printed two sheets I think it was like either one or two and we ran out. It was like, holy crap, we've got at least 50 people here. And in that moment, that was when the Jacks Podcasts was United was born, cause at first it was just like, hey, jacks Podcasts meet up here, take place, but at that moment it was like we got to continue doing this.
Badr Milligan:We got to meet so many people and it was just so refreshing to you mentioned, like for podcast listeners like that, using apps, you're ready at first base. Well, these guys were running home runs already. Anything you brought up, like the pains of podcasting, the behind the scenes stuff there was like this community you could relate to, and I remember like we were asking people to come up on the mics and share any questions they had and all the questions and things they had. It was so cool to see certain hands go up like, oh, I can help you with that. Oh, I know exactly how you feel. So, yeah, we've been doing that since 2018.
Alban Brooke:And it's crazy to think it's now five plus years of doing this and yeah, don't ask me to do the math again After I said you've been podcasting for 13 years.
Badr Milligan:Like it's just crazy to think, like the different podcasters we've met help people that have come to our events without a show and then launched one shortly after. It's probably my second, you know, aside from like the short box being like my baby, the thing I'm super proud of. This is a very close second of like building this community.
Alban Brooke:It really is a wonderful community. Now I go and think of how many cool and interesting podcasters and just interesting people that I've met by going to the meetups and it is such a refreshing thing. You know, podcasting can feel pretty isolating, like it's a one way street between this mic and people listening. And sometimes they reply, sometimes they leave a mean review on iTunes or Apple podcasts, but like mostly you just don't hear a whole lot back.
Alban Brooke:Everyone's like kind of wants to connect and at some point your friends and family are tired of you saying like I'm trying to figure out the gain settings for this mic and you then you go to the podcast meetup. Someone raised their hand to like I was just testing out to script and it's like so crazy, but I can't do this anymore. And then someone else is like oh no, you actually can do that. Here's the setting. Oh, and they get together on a computer and they're showing each other how they set up their workflows, or people are letting each other borrow gear so that they can get a recording and see if they want the gear. In the end, like the reason we're doing all this stuff is to connect and it's such a joy to be able to go to these meetups and connect with other podcasters, so I'm out of the Buzzsprout team.
Badr Milligan:We really appreciate getting to go to these and it's a big honor to have you guys so involved. Like I'll never forget the day that me and Blythe were sitting on the couch planning something for the JPU and I think at that time I still hadn't converted over to Buzzsprout or something like that, or I was still hosting it on I don't know something weird and I remember she had scrolled to the bottom of an email you guys sent and she was like, hey, come, take a look at this, is this a Jacksonville address? And just being able to read that day that we reached out and all that, it's been great having you guys as partners. And I wanted to say, in regards to just like the overall exuberance about the meetups, it always seems to come at the right time, to your point.
Badr Milligan:Podcasting sometimes it feels like you're in a silo, like no one else gets it, it's just you. And those meetups always seem to arrive when I need to be reminded about, like, why I do this or why I love this medium. I'm burnt out. I'm feeling burnt out. I wanna put the podcast on break. I feel like no one is in on this, and then I'll go through these meetups and hear other people also. They're going through that and they have solutions or they're giving you a supportive leg. It's always like a breath of fresh air. It always like rejuvenates and reenergizes me to like keep going and try new things. And also like it just reminds me how much I love the medium that you can find a show for every, or a topic, or a show for every topic. Like the amount of like sports, podcasts, self-help and all that. It's like wow, this is so cool that there's so much diversity in this medium.
Alban Brooke:There really is Just to kind of give you a little bit of a tidbit on the Buzzsprout side Blithe starting her podcast with us. So for people who are watching, potter's girlfriend and co-founder of the Jack's podcast, who unite group Blithe, was on the radio in Jacksonville for a few years and had a show called Helmets and Heels. It was women talking about sports. I heard the show and knew who she was from that and one day this is probably 2018, where I'm going.
Alban Brooke:You know, Buzzsprout is small enough that I'm still going through and looking at when people sign up. And then I see Helmets and Heels signed up and I'm like, oh my gosh, someone is obviously ripping off this show. And then I see the email address and everything associated with it and I went, whoa, we've arrived. Like people are people that I know are now using Buzzsprout. So it was a very cool moment for us as well. Potter, thank you so much for taking the time to hang out with us and kind of tell us what you've learned over 10 years of podcasting. If there was one thing you could give to a new podcaster, someone who still has not launched, what piece of advice would you give them?
Badr Milligan:Aside, from, just do it. I will say be a fan of the medium first right. Like, listen to podcasts like you know, have a favorite. You know, make it a part of your routine. Because when I look back at when I first started those first couple of podcasts the Walts podcast on the side hustle, the Juan Ep Hip Hop podcast and Fat man on Batman I took a little bit from all of them and I really like structure the show based on. You know, those elements that I liked from these shows. You know the way they interviewed or this segment, and that was my structure for a while and then eventually I got my own legs underneath me and I, you know, got my own confidence and, you know, had a different vision and I just, you know, tweaked them and made them my own.
Badr Milligan:So I'd say, like, listen to podcasts, become fans of podcasts and, you know, take from your favorite. You know I'm gonna butcher the same. You know, like all great artists steal. You know, don't be afraid to look at another show and how they're doing it. Obviously, you know, put your own flair on it, but don't be afraid to look at another show when you're first starting out and, like, incorporate the things you like I think when you start seeing how other shows do it and you know, when you appreciate the variety and where you could go, I think it's very inspiring and kind of takes the pressure off from having to build, like you know, this show Cause now you, you know you're incorporating certain elements and at some point you know if enough dedication and longevity is gonna become your own thing. So I think when you're first starting out, you know look to other shows that you enjoy and ask yourself what do I like about them? How can I make things my own? And you know, kind of have that as an outline.
Alban Brooke:That's great advice, potter. Thank you so much for spending this time with us, and we'll have to get you back for a round two, it sounds awesome.
Badr Milligan:Thank you so much, Alvin Beautiful.
