Step into the world of hacking and podcasting with Jack Rhysider, host of the acclaimed Darknet Diaries.
This episode's discussions cover everything from maintaining anonymity online, the art of crafting impactful stories, and the subtle distinctions between hacking and criminal activity. Jack not only relays his experiences with online doxxing and a brush with Hollywood, but also shares valuable insights into the power of connecting with audiences and the importance of celebrating successes. We navigate the nuances of podcast growth, audience engagement, and content creation and monetization, equipping you with plenty of strategies to enrich your podcasting journey.
Jack also extends his advice to beginning podcasters on maintaining realistic expectations and the benefits of reinvesting in their podcasts.
Subscribe to Buzzsprout Conversations on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast app.
Do you know somebody we should interview on Buzzzsprout Conversations? Reach out on Twitter.
Step into the world of hacking and podcasting with Jack Rhysider, host of the acclaimed Darknet Diaries.
This episode's discussions cover everything from maintaining anonymity online, the art of crafting impactful stories, and the subtle distinctions between hacking and criminal activity. Jack not only relays his experiences with online doxxing and a brush with Hollywood, but also shares valuable insights into the power of connecting with audiences and the importance of celebrating successes. We navigate the nuances of podcast growth, audience engagement, and content creation and monetization, equipping you with plenty of strategies to enrich your podcasting journey.
Jack also extends his advice to beginning podcasters on maintaining realistic expectations and the benefits of reinvesting in their podcasts.
Subscribe to Buzzsprout Conversations on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast app.
Do you know somebody we should interview on Buzzzsprout Conversations? Reach out on Twitter.
Hey everybody, welcome back to Buzzsprout Conversations. I'm here today with Jack Resider, the creator of Darknet Diaries. Jack is a former network security engineer, blogger and now a podcast host. Darknet Diaries has been profiled in places like the Wired, the Guardian, new York Times, all with outstanding reviews. Last year the show was downloaded over 28 million times across podcasting apps and this year views on YouTube have already passed 11 million. Jack, thank you so much and welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2:Hey, thanks for having me here.
Speaker 1:I'm excited to have this chat, all right. So for everybody who's watching you on YouTube, why do you blur your face or hide it in videos?
Speaker 2:I'm a big privacy advocate, so I'm always trying to practice more privacy and do it wherever I can right. You kind of have to take this sort of thing. Companies don't quite give it to you, so you have to make sure you're looking after yourself, right? So I cover a lot of content which is hacks and people targeting other people for just hacking into their stuff. So I want to make it harder for someone to do that, and that's another reason. Right Is to take a step back away from the internet. Don't put all my stuff out there, and I think it's a scary place, the internet sometimes, and if you have things out there that are too revealing about you, it makes it easy for someone to do something awful to you if they have that motivation. So, yeah, it's that kind of buffer between my personal life and my public online life.
Speaker 1:Have you ever had someone try to retaliate for the show or dox you or anything like that?
Speaker 2:So before I started my podcast I was just playing around with YouTube videos and someone there saw some stuff in the background and it was like a mountain or something and they figured out what mountain that was. And then from there they're like, where's this filmed? And you know, they got a general location and then they kind of helped them find the street and pinpointed where my house was, and from there they looked up county records and found the owner of it and my name and then from there figured out where I work and then emailed me at work hey, I'm your biggest fan, I love your YouTube channel, it's so cool. And that really scared me.
Speaker 2:So that was like kind of an early lesson of like wow, the internet is a big scary place. You don't know who out there, who's out there just trying to look at everything you do and wants to know everything about your personal life. So from there I kind of deleted that channel and took a step back and said I've got to really watch after myself when I'm posting things online and be careful about it. So I've been lucky that I haven't really had any, you know, scary situation, but that to me was just creepy enough to say, okay, this could easily become a scary situation, and I don't want it to be easy like that. I want to have that layer of protection from now on.
Speaker 1:And that was not a very large YouTube channel, right? Maybe only a few thousand subscribers at the time.
Speaker 2:Exactly, yeah, just playing around.
Speaker 1:So what did Kevin Mitnick's book Ghost in the Wires? How did it inspire you to start a podcast?
Speaker 2:That's funny. I mean you get inspiration from all over the place. So it's a little bit of that. It's a lot of podcasting in general.
Speaker 2:So you know, before I started the podcast, I was just a huge podcast junkie. I was listening to this American Life and Radio Lab and you know the classics, the ones that just have you hooked and captivate you about stupid things like suitcases or feathers or something, things you don't care about. You're like how is this so interesting? And I'm sitting in the car listening to a story about suitcases that I would never think that I'd care about and I was really, you know, interested in that. Like they hacked my brain somehow to get me into the story.
Speaker 2:And then I, you know, listened to the audiobook Ghost in the Wires by Kevin Mitnick and this guy he's been arrested for hacking into things and social engineering places and all this kind of stuff. It was just such an interesting tale. He's just a master storyteller and it was in the space that I was, you know, a professional in this network security, hacking, this sort of stuff. This is what I spent 10 years doing, going to the hacking conferences and this sort of thing. So I was like this is such a good story. I want a podcast of just tons of this, these kind of stories social engineers hacking into places, criminals doing things from jail, right Like it's.
Speaker 2:It's insane the level of stuff that went on in his book and that's kind of what I merged those two worlds of. I want more storytelling like this because this is high drama. This is exciting. There should be this out there, but I also want it in the vein of this American life or Radio Lab and let's mash them together. And that that didn't exist. I could not find that podcast. So I was like, oh crap, is this something I have to make myself? And I wasn't quite excited to do it and I honestly mulled over the idea for like a good nine months to a year before finally saying, okay, fine, I'm tired of waiting for someone else to do this, I'm going to jump on and make a podcast and started reading. The book out on the wire was the book that I read to get started learning how to podcast.
Speaker 1:I love that you say that you listened to the audio book. I listened to the audio book who goes to the wires as well. I think there's a big overlap between people who really get into podcasting and get into audio because it's just wonderful. They kind of fit a same niche in our lives.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this kind of reminds me of something that Malcolm Gladwell said the other day. He's a famous author and he was, you know, living in New York in the 80s or 90s and what he was seeing is people reading the newspaper. So he's like, if I'm going to be special, I got to get in on newspaper, so he started writing newspaper articles. But then he starts seeing people on the subway reading magazines. So he's like, if I'm going to be someone special, I got to become a magazine writer, right. So he's getting into what I think it was the New Yorker that he became a writer for, and he was. He was happy for that because he thought he was important, because the people on the subways were reading the magazines that he was writing. And then he started seeing people reading books on the subway. So he's like, if I'm going to be important, I better start writing books. So he starts writing books.
Speaker 2:But now Malcolm Gladwell has this huge podcast company and the reason for that is because when he gets on the train now he sees people with headphones in and he's like, if I'm going to be important, the books and the magazines aren't important to these people anymore, that whatever is in their ears is what's important to them. And so he started a podcast because that's, again, that's his still his train of thought of I got to get in their ears if I'm going to be important and I think I might be paraphrasing the way he described it, but that was really profound to me of, yes, the people today they want to listen, whether it's audio books or podcasts or music, it's just listening has just become like our mainstream way of consuming all of our, all of our stuff.
Speaker 1:I've heard people describe it AirPods is the first AR device that mass people use. You know it actually augments our reality. We're walking around, our visuals are the same, but we are in a different space, at least in our minds, because we're listening to a story that's transporting us somewhere else. It's surprising. You know, you can listen to podcasts for years and eventually you feel like you know the person. You start identifying their speech patterns. You know if you ever meet them in real life, like we're meeting now. You start to feel like, oh, I kind of know how this person talks and you feel much more familiar.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you really do get a, get a sense of that.
Speaker 2:But I think, taking a step further, as kind of my storytelling craft is, I really want you to live vicariously in the story. I don't want, like if there's a hacker that's doing something, I don't want you to kind of step back and be like, well, I would never do that, that guy's some idiot. I want you to feel like, I want to convince you why this is a good idea. This person is doing this, so that you're on board, you're cheering for them, you're excited for them and not in any other world you'd be like that's an awful idea, don't ever hack the police or whatever.
Speaker 2:But now you just you're so convinced, you're wrapped up in the swing of things and you're just like, yes, do it, this is the best idea ever. And then, when everything goes wrong, you can actually take that back, step back into your own reality and be like, oh, I'm so glad this was kind of like a dream and not actually me being part of this and this, this kind of feeling of being part of the story and cheering them on or understanding the importance of it, but then also realizing like, okay, I'm not in trouble for any of this stuff that happened here. There's something special about that. There's a good feeling you get out of that, which is like you walk away just feeling like what a crazy, what a crazy feeling I just had.
Speaker 1:One that's, you know, the definition of what great fiction does is. It helps us understand the motivations behind something that's totally different than the world we would live in. I remember there were you had some people that you interviewed for one of your episodes who later on came back and said you know, you actually really did a good job of expressing how I felt and what I was going through, versus you know, for a lot of these people that you're interviewing, they're mostly they've done something criminal, they've been involved in some kind of cyber attack. A lot of them have already done jail time or been sentenced, and you do a good job of empathizing with the subjects. How do you balance empathizing with what they did but also not glamorizing it for the audience?
Speaker 2:So I mean, to begin with, I think picking the story helps a lot, right? So, as people come to me and they're like, hey, I'm the guy who hacked blah, blah, blah, and I'm like, do you mind if I see your police report? Like, that's my first reply, right? Do you have an indictment? Do you have a story like a news article about you? And this helps, because this, this is the whole story arc. Yeah, this person did some awful stuff. They did a lot of things that got them in trouble and but and then they got caught for it, right?
Speaker 2:So that consequence is a big deal for not glamorizing it. If I had, if I had just talked about people who got away with, you know, stealing millions of dollars or whatever, that certainly would glamorize it. But the people who steal millions of dollars but then go to prison for five years, well now, yeah, you're excited for them, you liked it that they got it. But then you're also like, okay, this is a bad idea. I should have realized that from the beginning of this story. How did I get wrapped up in this myself? And so that's kind of that helps to not glamorize it. You know, everyone who reaches out to me they're like, I want to be a hacker. I'm like, or you know, a criminal hacker. You realize that. You know this all always ends bad. You can't get away with it. So I know I can point to my show about. You know, here's where everyone is going wrong.
Speaker 1:I've heard you make this distinction. Can you make it for us between the word hacker, and often you'll use the word attacker or criminal in your episodes. Why do you make that distinction?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think. I think hacker is just more a bigger, broader term of you run into something, you hit a speed bump, something that the technology is not wanting you to do, and you figure out a way around it. I mean, look at, just like parent hacks or daily hack or whatever you know, like travel hacks, lifehacker that's what I was thinking. These are all hacks because you know travel hacks. The airline doesn't really want you to know this, but you have a figured out a way to go around their whole system to get a cheaper ticket or or or hotel room or something, and so this is kind of the broader term I think of for hacker. It's when you you get something done that isn't and actually intended to do it that way, or maybe you got stuck and you wanted to weigh around it, and so I don't want to think that hacker is a bad term when people people use it as parent hacks, like there.
Speaker 2:Are they hackers? Yes, absolutely, I agree. So when, whenever I'm talking about hacker, I do try to not really use that word. Instead use the term criminal or scammer or bully or harasser, anything else other than that word, to make it more specific and not not really make a bad name for the word hacker, because I think, I think a lot of us are hackers and it should be, you know, praised and not so much demonized or whatever, and so I do consciously try to to write with those kind of things in mind.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not the tinkering or the use of a computer. We're trying to understand how the system works so that you can cobble pieces together. It's none of that. That's illegal, the illegal pieces. You stole some of its credentials and you were. I just listened to the Xbox Underground episodes and you know it's these kids I mean, often like teenagers, breaking into huge systems and all sorts of stuff, and that's the illegal part. The illegal part wasn't the computer games.
Speaker 2:Exactly so. So now let's just not say hacker and let's just say criminal, and that makes it more specific and I like that better.
Speaker 1:Now, going back to when you first launched the show. I also remember you said that you nearly quit podcasting after just four episodes. Why was that?
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh. So I was telling you I could not find that show that had this, you know, combination of this American life plus hacker stories, and so that's why I started. But then then, four episodes in, I found reply all. And I was like, oh my God, reply all is exactly this, and there are 90 episodes in and it's a big company and it's huge. It's a massive show and they're like, done by masterful storytellers.
Speaker 2:There's no way that I'll ever be able to compete with the end, and it doesn't even. I don't even need to compete with it. I'm totally satisfied. I've got the show I've wanted. Why do I need to make it now? There's one I could just binge.
Speaker 2:So I binged it and I was like, yeah, I don't think I need to make my show. I mean, they're covering all the same topics that I wanted to cover. I had these stories all listed out and they're already done it, but when I listened to it I was like that's not the way I would have covered it. I have some extra points I would have added in there. I know some stuff about the story that they didn't even mention that I think are important, and so, after listening to more and more, I Picked up the mic again and I was like I'm gonna keep going because, while this is really cool, I think I have a different perspective on how things unfolded and even though it is the show I wish existed, I still think that there's some value in the way I might present the same story, and I Consciously tried to not cover the same stories as them.
Speaker 2:I think I might have done it two or three that were the same, but I I went on because I thought that my opinion was unique enough, my storytelling was unique enough and my understanding of technology was unique enough to have a just a my own style that I think people could appreciate, maybe separately or on top of reply all. So, yeah, it was a time where I felt like, oh, you know, someone else has already done my idea, I don't need to do it, and I quit, but then Just thought and yeah, I think, I think it's still worth doing so you've talked a bit about style and Finding you know the way that your show is going to be different than other shows that may even have some Overlap in the subject matter.
Speaker 1:How valuable was it for you to use a voice coach and kind of finding your own style, I mean?
Speaker 2:when you start, you hear yourself and you're like that's not how I imagine this show to sound. I wanted it to sound dark and and spooky, like mr Robot or Fight Club the narrator and fight club is is great, where it just seems so dramatic and dark and something's going on there. I was like, okay, how do I sound like this? And I'm trying to lower my voice or talk slow, and I was just what wasn't hitting it. So I asked a voice coach Well, what it? How do I sound like these guys? And yeah, they said both, both mr Robot and Fight Club. Those guys the narrators in that are like extremely insomnia, like it's there's like falling asleep. And I was like, oh, okay, I'll try that. So I stayed up till like three o'clock in the morning to record I'm you know, maybe episode two, to try to figure out exactly this style and try to match it. And it worked. It would, I mean, it accomplished what I was trying, but it was a lot of work to do that, right. So I was like, okay, who else out there? Right? So I was. I was like, oh, rod Sterling from Twilight Zone. I love the, the dramatic narration that he does others.
Speaker 2:I really liked, you know, growing up I'd listen to Paul Harvey the rest of the story. It's like this guy's got a great way of drawing you in. What's the writing style here? How's the techniques working? So the book out on the wire was a great place to start, because this is ira glass, roman Mars, jad Abumrod talking about how they're writing stories, and so these were also huge influences to me. So I was like how does ira glass write stories and how does he narrate it's way of speaking that I tried to mimic exactly the same way and you know, in some episodes and then the editing and the sound design like I'd be very careful to listen to all this as Closely as I could. I'd be rewinding and going back like okay, they, they put a song in here right before they stopped talking and you know it went for like two seconds before the next person started talking.
Speaker 2:Like I was really scrutinizing like all the little Bits in here but also playing around with like okay, I'm trying to like bridge two ideas together with my voice. What if I just take my voice out all together? Does that? Does that bridge even need to be there and just leave that gap in, as if I accidentally deleted my own section and that worked sometimes too. So I was just really experimental, playing around with a lot of different voices and styles. Like you know, when I got to the try to do radio lab I was really chaotic, with just like transitions and jumping in when I didn't need to and having the Other person talk behind me and it was just like it was wild and it was very difficult Like all this stuff was like a ton of work to really try hard to write like them, to sound design like them, to sound like them with them I speaking.
Speaker 2:I tried on lots of different voices, even Malcolm Gladwell and another big influence to mine. He kind of puts you in this direction and sends you in this idea where you think you know where the story is gonna go, but then he twists it up on you and he gives you this big profound thought to like just think through for a second. And it was special to me because I remember when he makes these big points it's almost like a philosopher point to just be like wow, I never thought about football in that way or something. Let me just think about this for a second.
Speaker 2:Give me a moment, malcolm, and he does. He saw, I've heard him sometimes just put like 10 seconds of song in there, just to let you think for 10 seconds, and I'm like what? There's no other podcast on the planet that just has 10 seconds of music in between. I don't know phrases or you know pieces of the show, like you know Sometimes there's just kind of buffer music between, like the intro and the guest or something.
Speaker 2:But this was just like just give me a moment to think. And he did. And I was like how that's incredible. Like one time I, you think I even heard 30 seconds of all of music, just to just to really let you absorb the thought. And I was like, okay, so I've got to build up to this kind of crescendo thought, this big point and I'm trying to make, and then just kind of leave it there and let music just simmer with you for a moment. And People pointed that out. They're like I'm so glad that you let me think through some of these ideas and these episodes that you're going through. You're not just like rat, like hitting me fast and hard with all this stuff, but you're, you're giving me the space to absorb it. And there's something special about that. I was like, yeah, so so this is kind of where I ended up. Right, I was taking a little bit of Mac and I will take a little bit of ira glass, take a little bit of Rod Serling, take it a little bit of Robbie Malik from Mr Robot.
Speaker 2:Trying on all these different voices and doing all this stuff ended up with me, kind of picking my favorite parts. I think criminal was another big influence of mine up VB judge, right, she's just a phenomenal also at the way she narrates and and does her podcast and yeah, just taking all these bits together, putting it into my own kind of like, even when you try it to emulate someone perfectly, down to the every last word or Nuance of their voice, you're still not going to do it. You still have your like. Your interpretation of how they sound is already different than how they really sound, and then you trying to mimic that is not going to be closed. So you, you might be 95, 90% close just to listen to what it sounds like and think, oh, I know what's going on, but you don't hear all the other nuances going on, and so, yeah, just really I think it helped me quite a bit, you know, for the first 40 episodes or so as very experimental with trying on all these different voices and sound designs and writing styles and all this stuff.
Speaker 2:And right now when I turn on the mic I don't think about what's my style or what's my voice or or even my writing style or any of that. It's just kind of the natural me at this point. But it took me a long time to get there and to try it on and to do it, and I'm so glad I did because it was. It was a. It was kind of a study. You know, when artists do studies, they do like black and white studies or drawing studies or well, this stuff, and that brings out all this extra stuff into your art and that's kind of what it was. It was a big study for me to try on all these different styles and voices and it became a little bit of me and everything.
Speaker 1:One thing you do quite often is invite the audience to feel the way the Subject, the person you're interviewing right then probably felt the way I've seen it is. You're doing an interview. Someone tells you what was going on, they tell you about a problem, or you know the moment they're arrested, the moment they're convicted, or they're being there in jail now, whatever it may be, and then you'll say can you imagine how hard this was? They just went through this. Here's what's going on in their family now they're doing.
Speaker 1:This is what's going on, and you kind of pull together a few threads and it's all things that you kind of knew. And then when you you would pull it all together into now, put yourself in their shoes. How do you think they felt right now, which it does a really good job of setting the stage for what they're going to do later on, because a lot of time stuff just Appears to be out of the blue. Why would you fail out of school and just spend all your time trying to hack into an Xbox? That seems like such a waste of time. But then when you hear like the story all pulled together, then it start making making sense, you're kind of like, yeah, I think that's probably what I would have been doing too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's. I think there's a lot of reasons behind that. I remember, you know, starting out as well, as I went through every podcast Conference that I could find that had recorded their talks and I was like who was talking about podcasting and storytelling? I want to listen to everything, so I listen to. You know, every conference talk I could possibly drum up, and there was one I don't remember where it was from, but it was called how to make your audience levitate, and I believe one of the key takeaways there was you know, we're human, we human, you have human listeners and you have human guests. We're human. Connect with us on this human level. And how do we do that? We share emotions, we share spheres, we share Hopes and desires and dreams and all this kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:And, and the more that we can talk about these kind of feelings, the more you Start empathizing with the character or the or the person. And when you're empathizing with them, our brain does some amazing stuff. It creates oxytocin and this is, um, this is a good chemical. It makes you feel more sympathetic. It makes you for milk, for more, for more closer, more loving, more caring, more Connected. When you're in that mood, when you have those chemicals on your feeling that. Well, number one, that's amazing that you can feel those things just from listening to some words. It makes the story so much richer and more profound and more connected to you. You know you're now feeling things that you want the story to go in a certain direction, and all this sort of things and I think that's one of the tricks I do as a storyteller is how do I get you to sympathize with them even more? And it's not so simple as just saying oh, you know, think about how you would feel in this situation because, that you just kind of gloss over Things like that.
Speaker 2:We hear that so much and so I really have to outline Some of the specifics that were going on in the life to get you to really get into that space. And yeah, it's really fun to to bring you in at that level.
Speaker 1:This is kind of a totally different question. How do you use Google alerts to find shows or find stories?
Speaker 2:Wow, you uh, you really find in some good, good questions here. I like it. I want to Find stories to do right, and so my stories are hacker stories and stuff like this, but the latest news isn't. It's never a good place for me. I'm kind of a slow news junkie, if you have okay. Well, their latest news is that someone hacked into something and it caused some big devastation. You know what? We have more questions than we have answers right now. Who did it? I don't know well what. How much damage did they cause?
Speaker 1:We don't know, and how'd they?
Speaker 2:get in. We don't know, you don't know nothing. We just know that there's places on fire. Okay, well, that's, that's not a story, that's. All you know is that something's on fire. Okay, I'm gonna revisit this in three years, five years, and so how do I? And that because then at that point we're gonna have all the answers, right. So so how do I revisit this in three To five years?
Speaker 2:I'm not setting alerts to like, hey, look at this story again. Instead, I'm setting alerts to like a Google alert. You can say, hey of Google. If you see these terms out on the internet, tell me, I want to know about it. So the terms I tell Google is like hey, if you see a hacker got sentenced, tell me that. And so this is a great Google alert, because when a hacker gets sentenced, it means that they were found guilty. Right, so you got to be guilty before you're sentenced. And if they're guilty, then that means they've gotten caught. If they got caught, that means they've done something wrong. And if they did something wrong, and then they're a hacker. What I want to hear? That story right. So now we have the entire story We've done. We know Once the begin, the ones, the end of the story is there which I think being sentenced is pretty much the end.
Speaker 2:Now we can go back and dissect that whole story. We have the whole thing now. We have all the answers to everything and so I have, you know, quite a few Google alerts like that. You know, hack, crazy, like a hack plays out like a movie script, right, or hack straight out of a movie script. Or hacker suicide, you know, if somebody dies, it would be really a an interesting story of what's going on there. Or hacker dead Strange, you know, sadly, if it bleeds, it leads is another storytelling technique. So there's not a lot of stories I have where people die, but if it, if it happens, I kind of want to see what's going on there, what happened there. So, yeah, it's um, it's a good tool to just drum up, drum up good stories.
Speaker 1:So you said one of them is a hack. That was like a movie. Have any of your episodes ever been optioned to become TV shows or movies? Yeah, all the time.
Speaker 2:I've gotten probably a half dozen to a dozen calls from Hollywood on let's, let's go, we're ready to go. I'm like, yeah, not right, not right now. Like to me, I'm a I'm an audio Junkie and when we're talking about hacks or even computer usage, right, just using a computer you can do anything. You can Rob a bank over a computer, you can fall in love over a computer, you can build a company on a computer, you can do anything you can think of on a computer. But on a video Filming this, all I'm doing is sitting out a keyboard typing away. It's the most boring video you can imagine.
Speaker 2:So I'm like show me your vision of how this looks cool, because I, in the mind's eye, it looks amazing when you're thinking, when you're hearing these stories and people are doing this cool stuff. It's fun, it's exciting. You imagine all this stuff happening. But that's the theater of the mind and that's where I like to play. That's my specialty is this theater of the mind.
Speaker 2:When you put it on screen, there the theater of the mind closes up quite a bit, because now you don't have to imagine as much. You're seeing it, you're hearing it. What's to imagine? Everything's there in front of you. But with the podcast there's a lot that you can imagine and that is really. That's a place that I like playing in. So I have a tough time hearing Hollywood show me Like their vision of it and if they don't have a good vision, they just want to take my show and make it a TV show. Then I'm just like it doesn't work in my head. It doesn't track, it doesn't map, I don't see it. So show me someone who sees it and maybe we'll talk, and that's kind of where I end up.
Speaker 1:You don't want to end up in a spot where you've got one of those like CSI episodes where, like three people are typing to like find a hacker.
Speaker 2:Yeah, of course Hollywood gets it wrong a lot, but then I also I think of it just being some boring. You know hallmark TV after school special, where it's just super dry and not dramatic or fun or exciting and. Yeah, I want. I want someone with a good style to do it and make it really cool.
Speaker 1:What did Aaron manky from Lord teach you about podcasting?
Speaker 2:I mean, this is one of those things. When I was starting up I was just doing the entire landscape. How did you get big? How did you get big? How did you get big? How did you start? What was yours? What are you teaching people?
Speaker 2:So Aaron manky was obviously a big Podcast or when I got started. So I was like, let's hear it. And he was giving talks at conferences and stuff and yeah, sure, he kind of stumbled into it and he kind of didn't even know he was making a podcast. At first he was just reading his fictional stories or he calls him true stories, but they're, they're ghost stories. So how could a ghost story be true? So I'm already skeptical of the whole thing. But he says he was well researched and stuff, okay, there's a ghost story. So yeah, he kind of stumbled into it and he became big. So I was like, yeah, how'd you do it? And it was, it was kind of all by accident and I was like I can't use this accident to do to make my show big.
Speaker 2:He was influential in the way. That's just like your style of delivery is very different than everyone else as well. So I Gave his style of trying. You know this slow, monotone, very subtle music behind nothing. No, dramatic music. There's music there, but it's just. It's just kind of like invisible music it's there but it's not present At the same time. So, yeah, I mean just taking all these influences from different people on studying them and learning, learning everything I can open up their brain, suck it all out when you reach out to Aaron, you reach out to all these other podcasters.
Speaker 1:You're also doing a lot of almost like PR, and you got profiled in the Guardian something like three months after you launch the show. How did you do that?
Speaker 2:you have. You have some really good questions. This is this is bringing me back to to get started. So before podcasting, I had just like started tons of things right, I started a YouTube channel, I started a blog, I started all these websites. I started all these things and I wanted to. I was very hungry to just make something on my own, be an independent Start up or creator or something I don't know. I just know I need to like be independent and put my own stuff out in the world and be my own boss kind of thing. And so With that, I was consuming a lot of podcasts about startups and getting started and how to market your thing and Books as well, and so I was ready on that front.
Speaker 2:On the marketing front, I was just like super primed, like as soon as I have something to go, I'm ready to go. But I didn't have anything to like Market. But then this podcast came in and you know a few months and I was like, okay, I think it's good enough to start telling people let's go. And so one of the campaigns I did is I just took a ton of emails or found emails for journalists. You tubers big, so you know big time people on Twitter and just anyone with influence, and I was like, hey, I made this podcast. I think it's perfect, I think you love it personally, but also I think your audience so you know people follow you would love it. And that was. It was just kind of two lines and here's a link to it. And I emailed 100 people Journalists, newsletter writers, bloggers, everything I can think of that are in this space of hacking and technology and out of the 100 I emailed to did something right. So the guardian I was one of the people I emailed. They wrote just a blurb about me and some articles saying sub podcast you should check out, and to me that was such a big win.
Speaker 2:I was like, oh my gosh, I'm in the Guardian, this is a big deal. I don't really think anything happened out of it. I think maybe a handful of new listeners came. It wasn't as big of a deal as I wanted it to be, but I used it and my you know website saying look, I'm being featured here. You know I'm being written up by large newspaper and and it became this kind of thing where other people it was kind of like when people are like well, how come I'm not listening to this. I'm a hacker, I'm in the space. Why? How does the Guardian know about this podcast before I even do right? So people are jumping in just because I'm saying, look, the Guardian's written up about it or it's on my website or something, and you know, people don't know. When you're starting a new podcast like Is this, is this gonna suck is this good?
Speaker 1:is this worth my time?
Speaker 2:when you have this kind of thing like look, here's the reviews I'm getting, then they're like, oh, I should definitely try this right. So I used it for my own leverage. But I don't really think being in that article did much for moving the needle and I think that was good right. The other thing I wanted to finish up was the other person who picked up on it was Ryan brushwood from scams school and some other. I think he made some TV shows. He tweeted at it. He tweeted like hey, I just checked out this podcast and it's amazing and everyone should listen to it.
Speaker 2:And yet one million followers at the time and so those two were my big wins, like two out of one hundred, and that's kind of was my marketing strategy for a long time is, if I could have two big wins out of a hundred Attempts at marketing, then it's worth it and a lot of people don't know there's that much work involved in marketing. It's like, yeah, I tried once, twice, five times and five try a hundred times Because of two hit out of a hundred. It's gonna be massive payout and worth every second of your effort.
Speaker 1:I want to talk a lot about what you've done to market your podcast, because I think you are exceptional at some of the ideas you've come up with. But you touch on something else. I hadn't Prepare to ask you about this. But talk about social points and social proof for podcasts, and one of the ones we use everywhere else is public data, public stats. You know, if you go to a YouTube video and you see there's a million views, you're like, okay, there's probably a level quality here. I'll give it a test. We see, we see subscriber numbers. We see this on every social platform and yet podcasts are pretty much everything's hidden. You can kind of try to figure it out by using different apps have. Some things are public. You can look at ratings or views to try to figure it out. But you've gone in a different direction. What have you done?
Speaker 2:I really love sharing stats. I don't mind at all, I'll show, I'll show you all the numbers I've got. Which episodes are, you know, the most played, all this sort of thing. So, yeah, I've, you're the. I've been publishing just around up to what are the top episodes and what's the best, what are all the marketing tricks I've done this year and all this sort of thing that's been going on for the last five years. I think if you go to darknetcom slash stats you'll see all these write ups.
Speaker 2:And then I was like this is not good enough just to publish my stats once a year, and so I've always been working on ways to get it more up to date and so eventually it took me a long time but eventually I was able to convince a you know hosting providers and metrics providers and stuff can I access your API? And then I was able to grab that data and bring it over to my website. So now I do have every episode on my website will show you the exact number of downloads up to uploaded up, updated daily. So it's still not quite your. It's better than yearly, but it's not quite all the way up to the minute. But yeah, I do, I do share, like here's how many downloads every episode has, and it's because you're, I feel, just like you. You know you go to YouTube, you can see this. Why don't podcast show this as well? And I wish they did, and so I'm trying to, you know, be the being that space of like, hey, I'm doing it, why don't you?
Speaker 1:yeah, I think it's really valuable. What? Especially when something has traction so that we can all look and get an idea of what's working, what's not, and who's gotten themselves on stage and they're teaching it. But I can go look and I know now the show isn't actually succeeding. They may be selling something that they know what they're doing when they really don't, but there is. I also have another part of me that says it's really wonderful to nurture something in the beginning where there's no expectation of sharing stats, and so somebody who's really grinding and learning their craft in the beginning is really slow and maybe they're only getting 20 plays per episode, but they still need maybe the freedom for a bit to keep that hidden, or else, I don't know. I I can feel sometimes almost like shame, like, oh, my show's not more successful. I feel shame or bad that I haven't succeeded. Yeah, I think I.
Speaker 2:I think for me I was. I mean, when we look at these YouTube videos and you're like, wow, million downloads for this garbage. What is going on in the world?
Speaker 1:And then you look at your stats.
Speaker 2:You're like I got a hundred downloads, why is what? And so you, I, I started realizing that, wait a minute, I can't compare a podcast to YouTube, like that's just not a thing anymore. But YouTube is just wildly successful. Podcasts just aren't even close to this space of, even close to this amount of downloads. You put a podcast on YouTube it might get that many downloads, but first, just in the podcast world, they just don't. And so I was like, okay, I really need to know what are the other podcasts getting into here, and there's some hosting providers On that.
Speaker 2:We're sharing some of the some of the stats, and so I think I think for the most part, 120 downloads per episode or 150 downloads per episode it's kind of the average. Like 50% of all shows out there are getting above that and 50% are getting below that. So if you just you know aim for 150 downloads per episode, you're suddenly in the top half, you know you're above average, and so that you know these were some early goals of mine like, okay, let's, let's start there. Can I just be above average? And and, okay, so what's the next? What's the next tier? Right? So 80% of shows get less than 1200 downloads per episode and, okay, that's great. Now I have the next goal to reach try to be in the top 20% of all the shows. And so now I'm trying to get to, you know, 1200 downloads per episode, and so these numbers are just so much tinier than what you're dealing with.
Speaker 2:But you on YouTube, but it was so profound of me to hear some Of these hosting providers share these numbers To say, yeah, this is what we're seeing as our show. You know that thousands of shows that we have on our platform, this is what they're getting, and so this helped me kind of recalibrate what. What's realistic goals and stuff like that, and not looking at what YouTube is and and and I think I Think you're right that it's kind of pure and Gorgeous to just jump into a show without knowing anything about it and enjoying it. But as a podcaster, I'm just so fascinated with, like, how's my show doing, among the others, and At this point I stopped caring and I want to make more of an impact and I have more of a connection with people, and it's not so much growth, it's more of let's just take this audience. I have it, just make it more valuable to them. But, yeah, for the first four years or so it's just all focused on numbers, like Constantly four hours a day.
Speaker 1:I was checking stats dark debt diary is now six years old and you get something like two million downloads a month. How did you grow your podcast?
Speaker 2:I mean, everything's in different phases, right. So the first ten listeners is very different than the first thousand listeners compared to the first hundred thousand listeners. Right, yeah, there's a lot of different moves. I did. I think the thing that is probably king at every stage is word of mouth, and so I kind of knew that going into it, right. So I knew that the more people that I get to love it, the more they're gonna tell their friends and family, co-workers. I mean, people are telling me like, oh, I Put my parents in the car and made them listen to this.
Speaker 2:They were a captive audience for an hour and a half. I we drove across the, the city or whatever, and I was like that's great. Like you, you forced people to listen to this, to expose somebody new to the show, and I and you know I wanted more of that Like, how do I get people to be like you have to listen to this? So I would ask people at the end of episodes it was never Rate and review or subscribe on iTunes or whatever that people normally say I say listen, I want you to text someone right now if you like this show. Text someone right now and say listen, I have a podcast recommendation I want you to have. I want you to listen, to tell it, listen and get back to me and tell me what you think of it. And so I asked people that you know and I say go to work and tell a co-worker, tell a co-worker that this is what you've been listening to and that you really love it. And these are the kind of call to actions that I had tell a friend, tell co-worker, tell family member, tell someone else about this show.
Speaker 2:And I did. I made it very specific, right, like, text someone right now, pick up your phone and text them. You have your phone in your pocket. I know you do and you know these basic things. I think went a long way. If you can't text someone, the tweet, put a Facebook post, something right. And I gave him like a specific what to do.
Speaker 2:And I think these little things just really did help at Getting people, because I because now it's like this is what, this is what Jack wants me to do I can do this. You know he's giving me value, I'll give, I'll throw him something back. And the other thing is, you know, anytime I saw it happening on social media, I made a big deal out of it, right? So if somebody posted a story on Instagram saying I'm listening to this podcast, I'd be like repeat, you know, reposting that story and be like look at, other people are doing this. How come you're not doing this, right? So you want to celebrate when you do see that happening, when you see people doing the thing that you're asking, celebrate it, be excited about it. See, hell, yeah, let's go. What this is awesome.
Speaker 1:This is exactly what I want to thank you so much and just really be there for it first time I read atomic habits I tweeted something James clear and then he reposted it and said how Like thankfully was.
Speaker 1:And so the next time I thought about atomic habits and something I'd want to tell people, I made sure I tweeted it because he'd acknowledged it and said that it meant something to him and I knew it actually like got to him versus there's. So many times I've tweeted the authors that I've read a book and they don't like it, they don't see it and it kind of just disappears. And If you're on the listener side or the reader side, you're consuming the media and you do get to reconnect the author. Even if it's just a little bit, it does mean a lot. But it's funny that sometimes creators will say things like I don't want it to seem like I'm desperate, like I'm so excited about the first or the only Rating and review I got on Apple podcasts. I'm like you should be thrilled and give this person all the you know the love and the thanks, because this is one person who's now said I've really found this valuable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the line there for me on looking desperate versus not is if they tagged me, right.
Speaker 2:So if they're tagging me, they're bringing me into the conversation they're at, they're showing other people me and I can be there with them.
Speaker 2:But if they don't tag me, I'll often see it because I searched my show anyway on Twitter and stuff and there's people talking about my show that aren't tagging me and that's where I just kind of back off and I'm like I'm gonna let you have your own conversation. I don't need to jump in on this because you didn't necessarily welcome me and you're just talking about it and I don't need to come in and, you know, stir up different things and stuff, because people are criticizing it and stuff and I'm just like I'll watch it, I'll see what you're, what you're up to, I'll see what's going on and I don't necessarily need to, you know, defend myself or anything and just let it go. So that's kind of where the line is for me Are you talk? Are you, are you bringing me into the conversation you just want to have is like a sidebar, and I think you do look desperate if you start Jumping in on every conversation that has your name or podcast.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or arguing with the people who say the show is not for them. I've seen that before and I'm like well, 99% of people aren't gonna like whatever you create. But you really are gonna be successful if you can find 1% of people that love it. And when somebody jumps in to try to convince Somebody who's obviously not convinced, you really got to get into my thing. I'm like yet that's gonna have such a low success rate and it, if anything, it makes you look like you don't understand what's valuable about your own show.
Speaker 2:But I also think that when I was smaller, I could engage with every single conversation that Included me or people messaging me, and I think that was really helpful. Because talking with these listeners, getting to know what they liked and didn't like about the show, asking them what future you know, stories should I cover, or whatever was really helpful for a kind of getting a gauge, you know, just to get gauging the understanding and the interest and where people are coming from and what they're listening for and what they would take away from, and all this kind of stuff was was just super helpful at the beginning. And as I'm getting bigger, I can't respond to every single thing anymore and it's kind of sad. So, as this, if there's any small time, creators out there, really enjoy this time that when you're small, that you can actually engage with everybody who wants to engage with you and don't Don't ignore it because it's it's a special time that to me, you know you ask like what's the stuff that's kept you going the most? And it really is those people who are fans and showing how how the shows impacted them.
Speaker 2:And I didn't expect that right, I never expected that. I was like, maybe there's some money here or maybe there's some influence or I can use this to go somewhere else or something. I don't know where this shows going, but I didn't expect maybe I'm going to change someone's life and they're going to be Change careers because of me, or I don't know something else like that and I'm just like, wow, this, this is, this is giving me the wings. When I was, you know, down and out and didn't want to do it anymore, I remembered how the fans have just been so happy that it's there and, yeah, to be there with the fans and be part of that whole experience is just, it's a special thing that can keep you going through the darkest times.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's amazing. So if you're a podcast fan and you're out there and you're listening to a show and you enjoy it Especially when they are smaller shows I really encourage people to listen and then to reach out to the creators and tell them hey, this is how it impacted me, because on the other side it can often be pretty lonely. You feel like you're yelling into the void and sometimes for a while it disappears and there's nothing there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I, I really enjoy this. Actually, I mean, twitter's something that's just so magical about that exact thing, which is, I mean, just today I was scoring an episode and I was adding all this music and I was like, well, I'm not, I'm adding the same artist like over and over. I gotta reach out to the sardis and just be like, hey, you're making some pretty cool stuff. I'm really digging what you're, what you're creating, and so I follow them on Twitter and I say it and, and that I just leave it at that. But sometimes that sparks up all kinds of conversations and you know, you get new listeners or fans, I or just friends, and it's really fun to just I Mean, there's all these creators in the world, there's authors and youtubers and and musicians and all this stuff, and just showing your appreciation all of them and connecting with them in New ways is just super fun. It's just super fun you find this new circle of friends that hey, we're all creating stuff together and it's fun. It's just fun.
Speaker 2:I mean, a lot of times I'll see artists and I like what their art is and I'll try to make it. I'll try to like draw it or paint it myself and be like here I tried to do the what you did, but I'm nowhere close. But here you go and sometimes they love it. It's like the best thing that. Wow, I've got fan art, basically right.
Speaker 2:And I remember I got fan art once for my show and it was like so amazing to me that somebody had made something related to my show just their own art and I was like what? So, yeah, it's really fun to engage with other creators and let them know how much you appreciate it and see what comes back and you can't expect anything back, but there's a lot that has come back for me and it's something I'll keep doing forever. It's just like wow, this is such a great podcast. I love listening to your stuff and you send that little note and boom, the world. World can change. Like it's a weird way where suddenly they're a guest on your show or you're a guest on the airs or Whatever is happening it, stuff happens.
Speaker 1:This reminds me of a marketing tactic you talked about once. You called it tapping on shoulders on the internet. What is that?
Speaker 2:I think I used it in the context of trying to find guests and you know, in my show I really want those guests that aren't talking right. So it's, it's a dark. It's dark place that I'm going into and there's a lot of people are very Confidential and have NDAs and we'll never talk about things, you know, like if they're a nation-state hacker, like they can't talk about that. So those are the shoulders I'm gonna tap on anyway. I'm gonna be fearless about like hey, I know you worked for the NSA, are you able to talk about anything there? And no, gosh, why, would you ask me. And then let's go to Canada. What's a Canada's NSA? Who are all the people there? And tap on those shoulders? No, I can't, and so I'm pushing that line.
Speaker 2:You know it makes the guests hard to say yes by default, right? It's just that if I'm getting a lot of yeses, I must not be, you know, working hard enough. So One out of ten might even reply much less. You know most of them say nothing. The reply is no, I can't come on your show. But then, you know, you just make it one out of 20 and there are two out of. You know, one out of a hundred Finally say, yeah, I can. I was like what? This is the most exciting story I've ever had. Now suddenly right, because 99 other people were saying no way, it's never gonna happen, and I found one that said yes. So yeah, I mean, this is kind of my tapping on shoulders of Just keep going until you find the one and and and make it hard by default, so that everything that comes out on your show is just like how are you getting these guests? How in the world did you find this?
Speaker 1:person. You know I wanted to ask earlier how you prepare yourself for all the notes. You know you put out a hundred requests for someone to feature or highlight the show, and you're excited to get two of them. You're, and now you just said if you're not getting no, if they're all yeses, then You're probably not shooting high enough. You're not going for the best guests. How do you prepare yourself, though, to get all of those rejections?
Speaker 2:I think you know another way to ask. This is like how do you, how do you handle criticism or even praise? And I think I have to Kind of come apart. I take it the show is separate from me and I and I really separated in my head. If somebody's criticizing what I said on the show, it's never me, that I feel like I did something wrong or I screwed up something. It's always like the show Is that right? And so let's, I'll criticize the show too. I know that I use past participle incorrectly as I'm talking, right. I wish that guy knew like better English, you know, and so I could.
Speaker 2:I can easily jump on board this too, because I see that the show isn't isn't the best it's. It's got some places that it could work on, but there's just no time for it and so I don't get to it or whatever the case is, there's, there's excuses that I have, but I can still criticize it because I I know what's wrong with it, and so when someone does it too, I can be like yeah, I agree with you, I absolutely agree with you, but that's the show, that's not on me, that's not my problem. I Separated in my head, so it never, it never gets, it never becomes personal, and I think it's the same thing with getting those Nose right. It's not the personal rejection, that's not I'm doing something wrong, it's okay. The show is trying to hit these certain goals and the show just needs to keep trying in order to get there.
Speaker 2:And Same with praise. If somebody says, oh, you make something great, okay, you're talking about the show, you're not talking about me, because any praise that I get or criticism I get, I can't. If I bring it on board personally, it's gonna fluctuate my mood and it's gonna mess me up for, like, creating, I just want. I want to create something cool, I want to be excited about this. And if I have all these thoughts in my head about people who don't like it or didn't like this or Whatever and that's on me, then it messes me up with my whole flow.
Speaker 2:And so I really just take all the praise and all the criticism put it somewhere else. I put it in the show. That's the show, that's not me, and just leave it at that, because I agree with them. They, their show, has some problems. It needs to be, needs to be improved as well. Right, and anytime I met it, meet a fan that likes it, I'm on board with them of like, I'm a fan too, and that's where we connect. I don't take their praise on is like, oh yeah, you're talking about me. I'm like, yeah, I love that show too. We both connect over this because we're fans of that show and they don't really understand this or know this. That that's how I'm kind of approaching praise in person or whatever, but that's, um, that's the way I think it through, in order to not let it get to my head and to, yeah, you can't, you can't bring either one of them on board the praise or the criticism.
Speaker 1:What do new podcast creators think will move the needle as far as growing the show? But doesn't I?
Speaker 2:think, yeah, you hear these people saying rate in review, that's gonna move the needle. I don't agree with that. I've I've looked into this quite a bit and I feel like the algorithm the Apple I podcast algorithm does doesn't include ratings and reviews. It just includes mostly New, new listeners, new subscribers and number of listens per episode, and that's where the algorithm kind of comes into play. The ratings reviews just isn't there. And the way I know this is because I got into the black hat world of people gaming the Apple charts and it was like, okay, well, how do you game the charts? And none of them were messing around with ratings and reviews and they were able to get shows up to the top slots using Just downloads and plays and new subscribers yeah, episode 27.
Speaker 1:Yeah, chart stoppers is all about this, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, I got a chart breakers breakers.
Speaker 1:How did you figure out people were scamming Apple podcasts?
Speaker 2:I was very focused on Podcasts, like the whole podcast space, and I was like how come these, these shows I've never heard of, are hitting the top charts? What is going on here and that? And I'd be trying my best to see what the stats are. You know, looking at other apps and stuff like this and like the stats just aren't adding up. There's just not enough engagement on Twitter. There's not enough anything going on. There's no celebrity behind this, yet this shows number one. What is happening here? And it just didn't seem right then that you got that little man inside you that knows Something's not right about this and if you just you let him out and you see, you hear what he has to say, it sometimes takes you places.
Speaker 1:Did you ever get Apple to Talk to you about the charts, the people who are scanning the charts?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and this is um maybe another big tip of mine of I have a blog called lime dot link and this is a.
Speaker 2:This is a blog I just blog about podcasting.
Speaker 2:The more Excited I get about some of this stuff, the more I'm sharing about, like here's how to game the Apple podcast chart.
Speaker 2:So, whatever, the more interesting people come out and start talking to me people from Apple, people from YouTube, people from some of these hosting providers that I get mad at or criticize or praise or whatever and I really encourage people to blog about Things and expose themselves like it may almost, almost in a vulnerable way of like here's how much I hate this, or here's how much I love this, or here's where it's, you know, absolutely killed me or crushed me or whatever.
Speaker 2:You'll connect with people who have gone through that same experience, or you'll connect with the makers of those tools to try to rectify the problem or something, and you create all these new friendships. And so, yeah, I mean the folks at Apple podcast started listening to the show after that and they reached out and we started collaborating on things and I've been featured a few times since then and it's it's interesting because I was exposing their Algorithm, right, and I was talking about it, but the more they got into the show, the more we got, we got to get this guy Featured and stuff because they were just became fans.
Speaker 2:It was a weird experience and I can't express how much that blog is Just connected me with people in the podcasting space that have made such a difference in my life. I mean, I've met executive producers from that and owners of other podcast companies and they just I mean the people who are really got their finger on the pulse of what's going on in the podcast world, want to know all the latest articles about podcasting and if you have something exciting to share, that sometimes gets picked up by newsletters and then those newsletters get read by some of the big players in the space and you make you make waves, because it Podcasting world is still fairly, fairly small, so there's not a lot of news going on on the daily basis, yet there's a lot of people who are reading that daily news.
Speaker 1:I think this really goes for almost any industry. If you are willing to be the first person to talk about something and kind of raise the flag, here's what I'm thinking about. Here's what's frustrating me. Here's what's interesting to me. There's a lot of people who are not willing to be the first person, but they're very interested in having that conversation and now, all of a sudden, you are the oh, that's the person I should talk to about this. You know, you said that in the episode you talk about.
Speaker 1:I started tweeting about it and then other People jumped in and were like, oh, I've been following these charts too, and here's some others I found that were suspicious. Here's what I think is happening. Here's how I think the people on LinkedIn who are actually doing these scams, how they find you and it led you down, like, okay, I'll change my profession of podcaster. And boom, they all start reaching out to you. It's a wonderful episode, by the way, for anybody who is a podcaster and you want to learn about some very shady Marketing tactics. Hopefully, they no longer work, but for a period, they were absolutely working wonders and it was super interesting to hear. Not only did you figure out what was happening, but you talked to all the people who are actually doing the scam or I guess kind of spammy thing wasn't really scam, but they were getting up in the charts. It was just super interesting episode and you got all the people there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I see a lot of people ask on Reddit and stuff like, hey, does anyone try out these fiverr Podcast promoters, is this worth the money? And stuff like this episode will answer that for you. I call them up and say what's your strategy? Let's hear it all and it's really fun to to get into that. And then I think that's also exciting too, because that one wasn't really in my wheelhouse of like here's hacker story, but it was something that was in kind of the podcasting space and so a lot of Podcasters resonate with that episode, which then they wanted to hear other episodes, right? So I brought in this whole new group of people into my space because I went into their world and did a story about their world. And you know, another another thing I'm gonna be doing a story on is dubstep, and so this is gonna this is gonna bring a whole bunch of you know, dubstep people into this podcast that they're gonna be like what?
Speaker 2:this is a good, this is a crate. This is such a crazy show. I want to hear more. So sometimes it's worth Getting deep into another world, another group of people, another subject, and then try to scoop up as many of those people as you can. I need to be really in their world, with them, and so you know as I'm, as I'm doing this story about dubstep, I know.
Speaker 2:I'm not a fan of dubstep but I'm listening to tons and tons of music until I learned to love it, until I can Appreciate it, until I understand the players and the actors, so that when I start that story, when I get into that episode, I can really Connect with the people who love dubstep and not feel like I'm just like some dubstep hater. But really I am part of this scene as well and I want to be. I want to share with you this crazy thing that happened, because that's where the people that are loving that Sort of thing or whatever, are going to Appreciate about the storytelling I do is when I'm when I'm loving it with them, because if I come off and be like, yeah, I hate dubstep, but I'm gonna do the story about dubstep, then they're not gonna want to listen to much more of that, right? So you really have to be passionate about the subject you're getting into.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean you'll just alienate the people that you're trying to bring the story out of and they're just gonna close off or even Probably not do the interview.
Speaker 2:To begin with, yeah, but it's, it's a big commit to listen to hundreds of hours of dubstep Even though you don't like it, until you find, until you get to a place where you love it and you appreciate it and you like the dance and the artistry and all this stuff involved with it.
Speaker 1:I saw that you took a three month break from podcasting at the beginning of this year. Could you tell us a little bit about?
Speaker 2:that. Yeah, I mean, it was just some. I need some personal time to do some things, but there was. It was also a good timing because after five years of podcasting, I had felt like I made it. I had, you know, gone past all my goals and I was like, okay, I can kind of let this thing go on cruise control for a while. If it was in the first three years I would have been really hard to take that break right. But I felt like, okay, I put so much stuff out there, I have so much content. I'm just, you guys can catch up, you guys can re-listen to stuff. I don't think it's going to hurt me too well. So that was kind of how I balanced it, but it really was good for me to kind of let me. I was kind of feeling like I was sinking in underwater and the schedule and getting everything out the door and you know, time restraints and all this and listening to hundreds of hours of dubstep?
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:So it gave me this kind of breathing room which allows me to make better content too, and I think there's kind of two schools of thought on what kind of content should I make, and like one school is just put as much out there as you can. You're doing weekly, okay, great. Now, look, can you do daily, daily episodes, and all right, great. Now can you do for a day and I'm not kidding because this sounds like Gary Vander Chuck. Yeah, gary Vander Chuck is just like you're never doing enough, right. But there are daily radio shows that do four hour shows a day, right, and every single day of the week they are out there making four hour long shows, and to me that's like four episodes a day. So you can't really overdo it on that level. You just be you can. It's insane on how much content you could do, and I've seen other shows are just like we're 24 seven streaming and I'm like are you serious? So that's one way.
Speaker 2:And the theory that Gary Vander Chuck is saying is like just just keep putting stuff out, because the more stuff you have, the more options people have to consume you. But I'm on the other side of that spectrum, which is I want you to be fully caught up with my stuff. I want my show to be your prime time listening experience, where you, with, when a new episode is coming out, you reserve it for that special time when you know you can dedicate an hour non distracted listening whether it's driving or walking the dog or whatever it is that you're going to do to just fully enjoy that. That's the, that's the space I want, that's the time I want with you, and I want you to be fully caught up, and I think hardcore history does that right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking of too. Yeah, they want you, they. They put an episode out every three months or so and it's like well, when it, when it's out, everyone's going to catch up like immediately and they can't wait for the next. And I don't mind when people are begging me for more. I think that's a much better place than being like sorry, but you overwhelmed me and I you've got too much stuff out there. I've got to, I had to stop and I am like super far behind. Yeah, so that's. I think those are too too good. They both work. Do either one and you'll probably have a great success.
Speaker 1:The Gary Vander Chuck thinking I find to be very valuable for new podcasters or new creators, because in the beginning we use some type of perfectionism to kind of cover for the emotional issue we have is that we just feel uncomfortable putting stuff out there. So we're like, oh, we got, it's got to be perfect, and so we delay and we delay and we plan and we prep and we save up for expensive microphones and then we we never do it. And so I think in that in those times you know Gary saying you're going to do four episodes today and you're going to do them all on your phone. At least that takes all those excuses away. But I can't think of any video or tweet or anything that Gary Vander Chuck did in 2010. There's still a staying power Now his books do, but it's not like those tweets and those live videos are sticking around. But hardcore history episodes from 2010 are really, really good and they still have staying power.
Speaker 2:No, I agree with you. I think even at the beginning, when I was starting out, I was like I need to just put out so much more stuff. I mean, reply all has 90 episodes. I have four Like there's. There's like people are not going to even binge like the, by the time they start the binge it's over. So I was like I just need a ton of content like that. I know that's what I need. And at the same time I knew I needed to learn the whole craft. And so I did kind of know that first year was just I'm going to learn this craft and I'm going to put out as much stuff as I can, and it's not going to be the best and it's not going to be my longest staying power or whatever, but I just need to get through it. And you really do need to get through just cutting your teeth on on learning your craft.
Speaker 2:And I think I think we're all creators, where you know, if you're a podcaster, this is probably not the first thing you created. You're a creator just by nature, right? You've probably created other things, whether it's a blog or a YouTube video or any even a piece of artwork. If this doesn't work for you don't let that creator and you die.
Speaker 2:Go create the next thing, and whatever you learn from this whole podcasting experience is going to carry over into your next thing, because that's what happened to me and all this stuff that I was creating before this came to a head in the podcast and some like, oh, now I know how this algorithm works and I know how that works and who the players are in this space and where the conferences are and all this kind of stuff, and so when I started my podcast, I felt like I had a really good grasp on just creating in general and and building something, and all this stuff that I wouldn't have had if this was the first thing I created. Right, and so it was an accumulation of all the. All the things I've created in the past made this something special, and just keep that in mind on your journey of like it might not be this, it might not be the next thing or the next thing or the next thing, but you keep going and there will be something that just explodes.
Speaker 1:We've talked a lot about the podcast creating the content. You started 2017 2019,. You were able to quit your job and focus full time on the podcast and a couple years later you said you're making more money from the podcast than you ever did as a network security engineer. How have you monetized the podcast?
Speaker 2:I put ads in it. So I have host, host red ads and but I've also got, you know, patreon going and I've got shirts that I'm making and those are some other streams, but the ads are the main thing. The first 40 episodes I couldn't afford any any help, right, so it was just me trudging through it. There wasn't money coming in, there was barely enough for ramen, if anything, right, and so it was all on me. But now I've got a team of like nine people that are helping me on, and it's because I can afford this sort of thing, right. So the I think it's a good strategy that if you can afford to reinvest in your show and make it better in some way, then that's good. And you might not be making a profit out of it, but at least you're making the show better and you're you're able to keep it going.
Speaker 2:And I think there's three big challenges for podcasters. One is making a great show that people are going to like. Two is marketing it, making it spread. And three is keeping it going, and that's either monetizing it or or having that drive to keep it going, because you can lose out on that and then just stop because it's just not feeling worth it to you, for whatever reason, and so you know the money is keeping it going in a way that works out. I'm not reinvesting everything, because then it doesn't feel like I'm pulling anything out of it, right? So at least I'm able to enjoy some of the benefits of it.
Speaker 1:But enjoy some of the ramen that you make. You've done a few different things with premium content, so you were highlighted by Apple Podcasts for doing an Apple Podcast subscription where people can pay for an ad free or bonus episodes. You have a pretty robust Patreon community where people get access to a Discord chat and community with everybody else who's a patron. How have you found that to fit in with the rest of your podcast monetization?
Speaker 2:Patreon is going good. I think I think it was interesting. At first I wasn't going to do Patreon but I had like I think it was, five people that asked where can I donate to the show? How can I give to help you out? And I was like Jesus, five people are asking I better set something up. And so I didn't even feel like holding my hand out was a good idea at first, like just enjoy it, let me sort out the money thing on my own. But yeah, I was like you know what, if people want to help, I'll set up Patreon. And so I did, and I think most of the people that are on Patreon just want to support the show. They don't really want anything, any benefit out of it. But I do offer some bonus episodes and ad, free feed and Discord access and stuff like that. So it's really working out really well.
Speaker 1:And one of those do you think is the biggest draw without being extra work for you? Because sometimes the bonus episodes can seem like you've doubled your workload, and especially early on. If you've only got two people who are supporting you can't double justify doubling the workload for just those two. So how did you manage that?
Speaker 2:I think the bonus episodes did almost break me up Like, oh my gosh, now I've got to add more workload to my week and it makes sense because I'm making the money here on Patreon, so I should just be able to hire like another producer. But it just didn't work out that way and so I felt super guilty by not delivering and, yeah, that was probably the worst. I mean, people love it, so it's nice having bonus content to enjoy if you're all caught up and, like I said, I want to get to that all caught up state. So here's the next option. I just couldn't make it work out in the way that I wished I could. It's kind of the opposite answer for your question, but I'm going to leave it there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's good. So last question what advice would you give to somebody who wants to start a podcast, now considering it and they're not sure if it's right for them?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think a lot of people wonder if their topic is unique or special or anything like that, and I think, yes, it is, I'd go for it. We're never going to run out of news to talk about. There's always new news. We're never going to run out of music to talk about or sports to talk about. There's always a new sports event happening and people want to talk about it. And so we're just creatures of wanting the new stuff.
Speaker 2:And if you've got something to talk about that's new, just leave it at that. It doesn't. Your topic doesn't have to be niche, it doesn't have to be special, just it's new because you're just putting it out now and so that's enough, right there to be special. That's worth doing. And I definitely say, do it, because it also is part of your creative journey, right, and you're trying this space out. You're trying to do this and it's going. You're going to learn so much just stepping through.
Speaker 2:Well, how do you record and where does the editing button and how do I upload, and all this kind of stuff and all this. All this builds into just who you are as a character and how much you're willing to put into certain projects. And then you know, put the creative juices together to make an interesting thing. It's all part of the creative, creative journey, I think, and you've got to be. You've got to be in it doing stuff if you're going to have this journey right. So spend the hour, spend the time just making stuff that I don't really care what, just make it and.
Speaker 2:I'm a big believer on your vibe attracts your tribe. So just be as genuinely you as you can and people who connect with you and pick up what you're putting down are going to be. Perhaps you know some of your closest friends at later on in life because they like your style, they like the way you think, the stuff you talk about like that's great. Don't try to. Don't try to be the thing that they want you to be. Be yourself and that is going to attract the right people. That you're going to appreciate are your friends, if your fans. But if you are trying to impress everyone and just be what they want you to be, then you're going to always struggle with not being good enough or good whatever.
Speaker 2:And yeah, if if, if they just connect with you because you're you. Then you can always ride on that ride, and that that's always fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can let your guard down, just be yourself, rather than having to continue the facade that you started, so that facade is what attracted people. Then you have to keep that up forever and that's not going to work. Jack, thank you so much for spending way more time than I asked you for, so I really appreciate it. I know this is going to be a wonderful episode.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this was a lot of fun to get into and dive in. Thanks,